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The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

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Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#41

Post by learc83 »

david422 wrote: post #23
kayodelycaon wrote: post #7

As stupid as this sounds, this is extremely standard policy in many, many jobs. Just because something is expiring doesn't mean you can use it against the standing rules and procedures.

You are being downvoted - but this is realistic. Restaurants trash or donate expiring food. Corporations shred perfectly good hardware instead of giving it away. Not saying it's good - but there are reasons these policies are in place. It can also result in the situations we see here which sounds like this doctor had the best of intentions and is being punished for it.

Not only was there no such policy in place according to the article, but physicians are given wide latitude in making medical decisions (using drugs off label, using expired drugs etc...).

If they act unethically, there is a built in method to address this through the licensing boards that regulate them.

Criminal behavior is different, but the Judge that heard the case completely rejected the argument that the behavior was criminal.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#42

Post by ivanbakel »

rjbwork wrote: post #5

This is just Kafkaesque. People in a position of authority with blind adherence to rules intended for optimal scenarios. They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able. This whole thing is a logistical clusterfuck and they're trying to throw this dude under the bus. It's obscene.

> They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able.

I wouldn't necessarily object to that particular policy. It's a shame to waste perfectly good medicine in a pandemic, but would we feel the same if he had not found anybody vulnerable who was available, and instead ended up vaccinating his own children, who are fit and healthy? What if, instead, he taken the vaccine vial to Beverly Hills and called up the rich and famous to try and find someone who wanted to be vaccinated?

I think the prosecution in this case is wrong; and the authorities should have prepared well in advance to make use of spare vaccines in a fair way. But the motivation for the prosecution is understandable - a distribution policy exists to protect the equity of society, and bureaucracy is meant to be a guarantee of that equity.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#43

Post by x86_64Ubuntu »

treis wrote: post #32
rjbwork wrote: post #5

This is just Kafkaesque. People in a position of authority with blind adherence to rules intended for optimal scenarios. They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able. This whole thing is a logistical clusterfuck and they're trying to throw this dude under the bus. It's obscene.

>They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able I don't understand why people make arguments like this. Throwing them away and giving them to friends and family aren't the only two options. There's a whole swath of acceptable and achievable options. Giving doses to friends and family is a pretty bright ethical line. I don't think arresting him is the rig…

The article addresses your concerns. He was willing to give the vaccine to anyone he could get his hands on. After that, he chose people who were teetering on the edge healthwise, while only having a few hours to do so.

If he were turning away people from the vaccine site and squirreling away vaccines for friends and family that would be a bright line, but that's not what happened here at all.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#44

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

treis wrote: post #32
rjbwork wrote: post #5

This is just Kafkaesque. People in a position of authority with blind adherence to rules intended for optimal scenarios. They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able. This whole thing is a logistical clusterfuck and they're trying to throw this dude under the bus. It's obscene.

>They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able I don't understand why people make arguments like this. Throwing them away and giving them to friends and family aren't the only two options. There's a whole swath of acceptable and achievable options. Giving doses to friends and family is a pretty bright ethical line. I don't think arresting him is the rig…

Is there a specific alternative option you have in mind? The article mentions that he tried vaccinating everyone in the clinic and called the county to ask; I'm legitimately unsure what else he could have done to find people.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#45

Post by rjbwork »

golemotron wrote: post #26
rjbwork wrote: post #5

This is just Kafkaesque. People in a position of authority with blind adherence to rules intended for optimal scenarios. They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able. This whole thing is a logistical clusterfuck and they're trying to throw this dude under the bus. It's obscene.

It makes sense when you think about it. Without the rules, there's excuse to -not- find the people the vaccine is meant for and use it yourself. Anyone who thinks that this would not happen doesn't know human nature very well. They are welcome to post situations where such excuses haven't been taken advantage of. I'll take lack of replies as acceptance of my point.

Reply.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#46

Post by underseacables »

rjbwork wrote: post #5

This is just Kafkaesque. People in a position of authority with blind adherence to rules intended for optimal scenarios. They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able. This whole thing is a logistical clusterfuck and they're trying to throw this dude under the bus. It's obscene.

It sounds like the problem you hear with restaurants wanting to give away unused, clean food to shelters, but forbidden by the health department.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#47

Post by x86_64Ubuntu »

kuu wrote: post #18

In Spain we had many cases of politicians and public people using this excuse to get vaccinated before the rest (even bishops used it, and not only one!). I think it would be an easy to fix thing: Have a list of extra people available if you end up with an extra dose. It shouldn't be that hard, we had a year for preparing for this...

The response to COVID-19 is very different between Spain and the US. Harris County got the vaccine faster than anticipated and no protocols from late December even existed.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#49

Post by chadash »

The real issue here is that federal and state governments didn't think through the logistics of distributing vaccines even though it has been many months since we've known a vaccine would be coming.

Where I live, there are about 10 different places that vaccinate, between county governments, pharmacies and hospitals. All of them have separate registration systems. Meanwhile, appointments go quickly and appointment availability is often announced on Twitter, which is probably isn't the best place for the 65+ crowd.

What they needed to do starting in December is create a state-wide (or at least county-wide) registration system. Essentially model it as a priority queue with different buckets:

1) covid ward healthcare workers

2) other front line healthcare workers

3) 65+

4) preexisting conditions

5) etc.

You can disagree about which buckets go first, but that's not my point here. This should have been setup and publicized well before the vaccine rollout started. Now, you get a sense of exactly who wants to be vaccinated, so you don't get wasted doses when 45% of a nursing home's staff doesn't want the shot.

You also ask people how far they would be willing to drive for a shot. I know people who drove a few hours. I know others who didn't want to drive more than 20 minutes. So it's relevant. You also ask times of day that people are willing to be vaccinated and if they want to be notified if earlier slots open up.

Once vaccines are actually available, you have a central queue and you pick randomly within each priority group. So let's say you are up to 65+ adults in the general population (which is a large group). 1000 appointments open up at a hospital in zip code 12345. You send out a text message and email to 1400 (since not all 1400 are going to respond to the text message) randomly selected people in zip code 12345 or who are willing to drive there. For some elderly people, you might need to make phone calls. You give people some time to respond and if they don't, then add them back to the pool and send messages to more people until you get all slots filled.

There are thousands of people in any major city who would drop what they are doing and run out to get the vaccine on a moment's notice. With a better system in place, this should never have fallen on the doctor in the first place.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#50

Post by PartiallyTyped »

SamBam wrote: post #19
kayodelycaon wrote: post #7

As stupid as this sounds, this is extremely standard policy in many, many jobs. Just because something is expiring doesn't mean you can use it against the standing rules and procedures.

> Dr. Gokal said the advice was to vaccinate people eligible under the 1(a) category then those under the 1(b) category. > After that, he said, the message was: “Just put it in people’s arms. We don’t want any doses to go to waste. Period.” It sounds like not wasting the limited vaccine was actual policy (possibly unofficial policy, but the message he was receiving). And this would be the right policy. It's absolutel…

Not only was he within policy, he was given permission, explicitly.

> Dr. Gokal said he called a Harris County public health official in charge of operations to report his plans to find 10 people to receive the remaining doses. He said he was told, simply: OK.

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