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Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

franck-leroy.medium.com

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Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#261

Post by CryptoUnchained »

ForHackernews wrote: post #26
yuvadam wrote: post #17

As a Bitcoin proponent who is also concerned about it's long term sustainability, this post is an embarrassing read. The author clearly has a very poor understanding of what value Bitcoin currently has in our current macro-economic situation, and why investors (and corporations) are choosing to allocate larger parts of their portfolios in cryptocurrencies. Calling out the BTC network on its energetic inefficiency com…

> the work put into the network is exactly the scarce asset that is being invested in. No! No it isn't! Gah! I'm sorry but it is so frustrating to hear this nonsense repeated over and over. Bitcoin is not valuable just because you wasted shedloads of energy to make a bitcoin! It's valuable because somebody else will exchange something of value for it. It's incredibly maddening how so many crypto-libertarians suddenly…

I disagree, sunk cost fallacy and just plain miners needing to ROI their equipment, facilities, and energy costs sets a base psychological minimum price that is rising every year as the hash rises. Now that we've hit a wall at the 5nm process it's anyone's guess what kind of effect that will have on new entrants. I imagine China will take an even larger slice of the pie as energy costs will be the main deciding factor of profitability.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#262

Post by CryptoUnchained »

ForHackernews wrote: post #26
yuvadam wrote: post #17

As a Bitcoin proponent who is also concerned about it's long term sustainability, this post is an embarrassing read. The author clearly has a very poor understanding of what value Bitcoin currently has in our current macro-economic situation, and why investors (and corporations) are choosing to allocate larger parts of their portfolios in cryptocurrencies. Calling out the BTC network on its energetic inefficiency com…

> the work put into the network is exactly the scarce asset that is being invested in. No! No it isn't! Gah! I'm sorry but it is so frustrating to hear this nonsense repeated over and over. Bitcoin is not valuable just because you wasted shedloads of energy to make a bitcoin! It's valuable because somebody else will exchange something of value for it. It's incredibly maddening how so many crypto-libertarians suddenly…

The reason Proof of work is set apart from its POS clones is because the inflation/emission brought to market every day has real costs to obtain... Fiat being printed cost 1% of its nominal value to create, which is devaluing every single dollar already in existence, POW psychologically adds more value to existing coins, because each new coin cost even more to mine than the one before it.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#264

Post by yownie »

tsimionescu wrote: post #246
yownie wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are located too far from major client population centers for any Data hosting to make sense, you'd always deal with higher latency to either the US or European users vs hosting in those places. Few submarine cable connections (which cost hundreds of millions to run) mean high data costs versus well connected cities such as Hamburg or London or NYC. You do realize that transmitting power via cable means moving it t…

There's also the option of just not generating the energy. I doubt the smelters were closed to make room for bitcoin miners. Reading more about this, it seems that environmental groups in Iceland are fighting the expansion of bitcoin because it is directly driving extra demand for electricity, not simply using the existing production[0] - another obvious problem if we start looking at the environment even beyond glob…

> it seems that environmental groups in Iceland are fighting the expansion of bitcoin because it is directly driving extra demand for electricity, not simply using the existing production

As someone who lives and works here I can assure you there is absolutely no environmental group fighting the expasion of btc mining here in Iceland, we are however viciously fighting the increasingly destruction tourism influx that has been happening since 2012. It does far more damage that the dams that were built here well before btc mining even existed.

>while currently not paying much of anything to the local government[2] and hiring next to no people, like most tech industries.

This is also untrue, construction and remote hands as well as grid infrastructures resulted from them, the companies that run the facilities also incorporate here and pay corp and employee tax here.

>And it is not my place to have productive ideas for how a country could use its natural resources. My claim was that bitcoin mining should be stopped as soon as possible, as it is driving an overall increase in power needs for the entire world, at a time we should be looking for every possible means to reduce our energy consumption.

If you followed your own citations you'd see one of them linked to https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption which shows est electric consumption going back as far as 2018. Notice the graph has not really changed since 2018 (since the last halving).

>You came and brought up the extremely singular case of Iceland, as if it disproved anything. In the end Iceland is irrelevant in the discussion of Bitcoin's impact on the world.

Again your OWN source has Iceland listed as one of the top mining locations in the world of course it's relevant. I've even read estimates that 40% of bitcoin mining is coming from renewable sources, most during off peak season where that electricity would be wasted otherwise.

You want to solve the energy efficiency problems of the world? Good, begin by linking the disparate energy grids amongst the world to eliminate peak usage and off peak waste, you'll save far more electricity just by that way.

Not by knee-jerk "I see no value in this so it must have no value" vague emotional appeals on the internet. All I see is you vaguely groping for why it should be treated differently than any other form of industry or innovation while insisting all the rest are somehow necessary and this not. You're not even consistent in your reasons from reply to reply.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#265

Post by yownie »

tsimionescu wrote: post #242
yownie wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

please provide a better worded response to such an inane generality then. > Because they bring enjoyment to people, and all that truly matters is the happiness of people. my response was actually the politest way I knew how to respond to someone pulling argument after argument out of their backside without any introspection whatsoever. I honestly think they're just trolling at this point.

A better response would have been to come up with a different definition of what you understand by useful work. A better response would have been to turn my own definition around by saying that bitcoin also brings people happiness. A better response would have been to say nothing and down vote. Calling me a fucking moron without anything at all to add, after I took the time to reply to your 1 word comment (or to some…

>Oh, and accusing me of spewing inane generalities when the real value of art and entertainment has been called into question and vindicated throughout all of economic theory is quite rich.

This is completely circular login, if you're valuing those things as purely economic goods then you're ascribing a monetary value to them, which you could just as easily to bitcoin mining, startups and associated industries.

>and all that truly matters is the happiness of people.

This is the laziest argument I've seen on how to measure relevant value, I mean if I'm a murdered them murdering people is going to make me happy, so what does this argument even mean?

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#266

Post by sopp »

yownie wrote: post #265
tsimionescu wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A better response would have been to come up with a different definition of what you understand by useful work. A better response would have been to turn my own definition around by saying that bitcoin also brings people happiness. A better response would have been to say nothing and down vote. Calling me a fucking moron without anything at all to add, after I took the time to reply to your 1 word comment (or to some…

>Oh, and accusing me of spewing inane generalities when the real value of art and entertainment has been called into question and vindicated throughout all of economic theory is quite rich. This is completely circular login, if you're valuing those things as purely economic goods then you're ascribing a monetary value to them, which you could just as easily to bitcoin mining, startups and associated industries. >and…

If thousands of people derive meaning and enjoyment out of a movie or a book, without the production of said movie or book killing anyone, it is quite obviously a much greater good than a single person committing murder for their own enjoyment.
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