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The Crypto-Chernobyl

stephendiehl.com

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Re: The Crypto-Chernobyl

#31

Post by eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 »

nexthash wrote: post #23

Yes, yes, yes. In another discussion, I brought up that according to current energy consumption rates for average mining equipment, it took 2.4 million terrawatts to mine the $1.5 billion in Bitcoin Tesla bought recently. Does putting this much money in Bitcoin have a positive economic impact? Does it have any tangible value other than as a stopover for hedge fund and organized crime money? I think not, despite all t…

How much energy did it consume to mint all the physical metal coins we have in circulation?

How much does it consume to mint fresh ones when the old ones are damaged?

Bitcoins don't wear off, the ones we've been mining now will be in use for possibly centuries to come once the block reward is zero and only transaction fees will fund the miners.

By then, mining will decrease a lot because people won't be willing to pay as much transaction fees as miners currently earn from minting coins.

So this is completely equal to the question of how much energy our physical coin minting has cost us - except that physical coins actually are damaged and will be replaced! In the end they might consume more energy!

Re: The Crypto-Chernobyl

#32

Post by JoshTko »

My understanding is that the vast majority of crypto mining happens at dedicated farms in energy cost optimal locations such as Iceland where you can have clean geothermal energy. I haven't seen an analysis that looks at actual mining facilities carbon costs vs. a general average figure of CO/2 emissions per energy unit which absolutely would not apply in this case.

Re: The Crypto-Chernobyl

#33

Post by chordalkeyboard »

MarcScott wrote: post #4

Still one of the best descriptions of bitcoin I have seen. > imagine if keeping your car idling 24/7 produced solved Sudokus you could trade for heroin https://twitter.com/Theophite/status/1030225104234373121

Imagine if the government required you to use ice cubes for currency and people wondered why everyone was using some highly inefficient workaround so their money didn’t vanish in between getting paid and paying bills.

Re: The Crypto-Chernobyl

#34

Post by wsinks »

justforyou wrote: post #5

It's disengenuous to make that argument without a comparison to the full manifold energy consumption required to support fiat cash... (including things like burning gasoline and jet fuel to move paper and metal for shredding/melting.)

I know I just replied, but I just thought of something I hadn't thought of. How many of these Bitcoin miners are using their mining rigs as heaters? I'd be more stoked on it then.

There was a Dutch company I knew that was using a distributed protocol to combine data computation in people's homes and have the heat be an actual dependable byproduct. I hope they're doing well. Such a cool idea.

Re: The Crypto-Chernobyl

#35

Post by PragmaticPulp »

devname wrote: post #3

The energy usage is for mining new bitcoin and collecting fees, not "7 transactions per second". Newly mined bitcoin will be used for infinite future transactions. If you want more settlement with same store-of-value properties, use Bitcoin Cash.

> The energy usage is for mining new bitcoin and collecting fees, not "7 transactions per second".

I think you've misunderstood. The mining fees you cited are for those 7 transactions per second. Miners collect fees for processing those transactions.

Focusing on the dollar amount of those Bitcoin or how many times a Bitcoin can be re-used is irrelevant. If anything, it's bizarrely wasteful that Bitcoin requires the energy consumption of a medium sized country just to continue confirming that your balance hasn't changed.

Re: The Crypto-Chernobyl

#36

Post by rfd4sgmk8u »

duskwuff wrote: post #24
rfd4sgmk8u wrote: post #15

Same old misinformed opinions 'ma energy', while feigning some kind of environmentally superiority. We have to get off Planet Earth! We need to reach Kardashev Type I before we start talking waste. The energy usage argument is a neoluddite position and will doom humanity to die on this rock stuck forever in some kind of mid 20th century malaise. You could scream into the abyss, or you could enrich your future. Some p…

So what's your response? That spending an ever-increasing amount of energy and generating a significant quantity of non-reusable electronics waste on a Red Queen's race is Good, Actually? And if so: why?

All technology behaves this way! It generates a significant quantity of non-reusable electronics waste, from that 10 year old laptop to that 3 year old cell phone.

Its ALWAYS a Red Queens race. This is good actually, because our lives are enhanced by the resultant technology to solve our problems. What I feel is missing from these comparisons to waste is a sense of scale. Quoting Gigajoules of usage should be seen as a plus to the scale of any technology. Its never waste. It means its working!

Waste is when a finite resource like the atmosphere is ruined. Energy is everywhere. It is everything. We harness it to achieve our goals and solve our problems. Energy is never truly wasted.

Re: The Crypto-Chernobyl

#37

Post by eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 »

robjan wrote: post #28
eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 wrote: post #22

> incentives an ever increasing amount of waste that can only increase with time. That is NOT true: The Bitcoin block reward is cut in half every four years - an exponential decay! In the long-term it will be zero , miners will only earn transaction fees. This means that there will be a supply vs demand market, where supply is the willingness of people to pay transaction fees, and demand is miners who consume them. A…

That's a big problem then. That means once the block mining reward turns to zero most miners will have to cease their operation to keep themselves in the black. If that happens, the cost of a 50% attack significantly decreases.

They will sell off their equipment to the general public, which causes a lot of decentralization, and thus makes a coordinated attack more difficult.

Re: The Crypto-Chernobyl

#38

Post by tal8d »

Apocryphon wrote: post #29
tal8d wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you actually point out the misinformation? Yes. I submit to you this article. Consider the framing of bitcoin's utility and the immovability of the status quo. > This article is not proposing to 'waste energy' on folding proteins. No, that accompanies the handwringing about POW - you can substitute an number of other silly suggestions: SETI, fusion reactor modeling, etc. > This article points out that other sys…

BOINC has many projects, several of which are geared towards solving open questions in mathematics https://boinc.berkeley.edu/projects.php

Which is the worst thing you could possibly use to secure anything.

Re: The Crypto-Chernobyl

#39

Post by Apocryphon »

tal8d wrote: post #38
Apocryphon wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BOINC has many projects, several of which are geared towards solving open questions in mathematics https://boinc.berkeley.edu/projects.php

Which is the worst thing you could possibly use to secure anything.

Take it up with the creators of Gridcoin

Re: The Crypto-Chernobyl

#40

Post by nexthash »

eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 wrote: post #31
nexthash wrote: post #23

Yes, yes, yes. In another discussion, I brought up that according to current energy consumption rates for average mining equipment, it took 2.4 million terrawatts to mine the $1.5 billion in Bitcoin Tesla bought recently. Does putting this much money in Bitcoin have a positive economic impact? Does it have any tangible value other than as a stopover for hedge fund and organized crime money? I think not, despite all t…

How much energy did it consume to mint all the physical metal coins we have in circulation? How much does it consume to mint fresh ones when the old ones are damaged? Bitcoins don't wear off, the ones we've been mining now will be in use for possibly centuries to come once the block reward is zero and only transaction fees will fund the miners. By then, mining will decrease a lot because people won't be willing to pa…

Ah, the Bitcoin gang has arrived! Have you considered the fact that coinage is actually for buying things? It drives economic activity! Now explain what Bitcoin does
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