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Is Apple Banning Free Analytics SDKs?

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Re: Is Apple Banning Free Analytics SDKs?

#71

Post by yarcob »

tabs_masterrace wrote: post #15

For those who have the freedom to decide what to use, I recommend looking into rolling your own. Especially if you're writing back-end services for your app anyway. After Google shutdown Fabric.io, we asked ourselves why even rely on 3rd parties for analytics. All we really wanted to know is basic usage statistics, like uniques, sessions, events. Turns out to be just a few days of work for what amounts to a CRUD serv…

Unlike everyone else here, I agree. In most cases you can build your own analytics.

Think about what kind of analytics you need, and then decide if you should buy something complicated or just build something simple yourself.

For example, for us crash reporting and knowing wich system version to support is important, so we built our own analytics system for that.

We don't need detailed usage statistics. It's just not very useful for us. We know that people use features that we build, the question is which features are missing! Why are people not able to use our app?

No amount of analytics on our existing users is going to tell us that, so getting powerful analytics is just not important for us.

Re: Is Apple Banning Free Analytics SDKs?

#72

Post by tinus_hn »

simonh wrote: post #65
tinus_hn wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That depends on how creative you are. They could sell support for their SDK, exploit network effects, gain exposure and developer mindshare, or, you know, just provide something to the community for free with no strings attached.

None of that changes the fact of how they use these SDKs are intended to get value at the moment.

Let me predict Apples answer to that for you.

They don’t care.

They don’t have to care. They don’t care. If you are hurt by this decision, you can either change or give up. You can complain on web forums and try to convince other developers but the fact is that you are a force against one of Apples core values, user privacy. They have barely anything to gain from you and one of their core values to lose.

You’d need some serious leverage to make them care and you don’t have it. And even if you had, Apple would simply build their own framework and use their control over the platform, the tools, the stores and the rules to completely crush you. And if you imagine you have an antitrust case, it will take years and you will probably lose.

Re: Is Apple Banning Free Analytics SDKs?

#73

Post by random5634 »

sofixa wrote: post #28
simonh wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Apple bashing is in the title and in the text, calling this a "def-facto ban" by Apple. No it's not, it's giving the option to the users. The fact that users generally abhor and detest this sort of tracking and want nothing to do with it is hardly Apple's fault.

In the same way that people bash the EU for cookie banners, people will bash Apple for extra work on both sides ( developer and user) to comply with new, better rules around privacy.

I bash the EU constantly for cookie banners because they are an example of something that is SO ANNOYING that USERS absolutely hate them.

Apple and the EU's approaches to privacy and security are diametrically opposed. Apple has reasonable technical defaults, and is not to intrusive. EU is massive annoyance and intrustion, and limited technical competence.

My guess - if you let users flip a bit in their browser to never have to see a cookie popup again with an auto agree to all forms of tracking, a huge number would do it.

The EU has done more to damage the attention people pay to privacy and security than almost anyone out there.

They seem to not realize that:

1) Users have control over cookies, persistence etc via their browser directly, which would be a great place to start making changes.

2) Popping up a notice for every damn innocuous and obvious use of a cookie is totally annoying to just about everyone.

3) THe amount of time wasted on cookie policies alone is just nuts. The mismash is ridiculous. ICO, CNIL, German and Spanish DPA, UK and EU laws on cookies.

Re: Is Apple Banning Free Analytics SDKs?

#74

Post by simonh »

_qulr wrote: post #70
simonh wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why are you complaining about them implementing privacy controls?

I'm not. I'm complaining about the claim "It's not a ban! It's not a ban! Apple isn't doing anything!" This whole argument seems like a variation of "Guns don't kill people, [X] does." If Apple puts a (metaphorical) gun in every user's hand and points them at the analytics SDKs, it seems ludicrous to claim that Apple has nothing to do with the analytics SDKs getting killed. Regardless of whether or not they deserve t…

The reason I and others object the the word ‘ban’ is because it is implying (not even implying, falsely stating) that it is Apple that is the active party in denying these developers and SDKs access to user data. It is not Apple denying access to user data, it is users denying access to their data.

The thing is “users ban collection of their personal identifying data, killing tracking SDKs” is an inconvenient narrative for Facebook, Google and developers that use these SDKs for that purpose.

Re: Is Apple Banning Free Analytics SDKs?

#75

Post by _qulr »

simonh wrote: post #74
_qulr wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not. I'm complaining about the claim "It's not a ban! It's not a ban! Apple isn't doing anything!" This whole argument seems like a variation of "Guns don't kill people, [X] does." If Apple puts a (metaphorical) gun in every user's hand and points them at the analytics SDKs, it seems ludicrous to claim that Apple has nothing to do with the analytics SDKs getting killed. Regardless of whether or not they deserve t…

The reason I and others object the the word ‘ban’ is because it is implying (not even implying, falsely stating) that it is Apple that is the active party in denying these developers and SDKs access to user data. It is not Apple denying access to user data, it is users denying access to their data. The thing is “users ban collection of their personal identifying data, killing tracking SDKs” is an inconvenient narrati…

You avoided my question: from your perspective, why wouldn't Apple ban them if it could?

What's wrong with banning? Why is that such an inconvenient narrative for you? Why is it inconvenient for Apple? This feels like just a game where Apple is trying very hard to avoid personal (or legal?) responsibility for its choices by pushing the choice onto users. It seems to me like a cop-out. Again, Apple takes away choices from users in many other areas, so why give the choice here, knowing what choice almost everyone will take?

Re: Is Apple Banning Free Analytics SDKs?

#76

Post by simonh »

_qulr wrote: post #75
simonh wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason I and others object the the word ‘ban’ is because it is implying (not even implying, falsely stating) that it is Apple that is the active party in denying these developers and SDKs access to user data. It is not Apple denying access to user data, it is users denying access to their data. The thing is “users ban collection of their personal identifying data, killing tracking SDKs” is an inconvenient narrati…

You avoided my question: from your perspective, why wouldn't Apple ban them if it could? What's wrong with banning? Why is that such an inconvenient narrative for you? Why is it inconvenient for Apple? This feels like just a game where Apple is trying very hard to avoid personal (or legal?) responsibility for its choices by pushing the choice onto users. It seems to me like a cop-out. Again, Apple takes away choices…

The Google/Facebook, etc position is that they should decide what user PII they collect and how they use it. Your position is that it's ok for Apple to decide what user data can be collected and how it's used ("What's wrong with banning?").

But there is a third party here who's opinion is the one that actually matters. If you considered their existence and role here for even a second, the reason why it would be wrong for Apple to decide with a direct ban would be immediately obvious - that third party is the users.

My position, and that of Apple, is that it's none of Apple's business, and it's none of Google/Facebooks business to decide these things. It's the user's business how their data is used, they should be making these decisions. That's why it would be wrong for Apple to impose a ban.

After all the Google/Facebook narrative is that their use of PII brings value to users in the from of relevant ads and personalised services. Well ok, make that case to users and let them decide.

I've been banging on about this through the whole comment thread, but you just seem flat out unable to even see that users have any role at all in this. You ignore their existence and role implicitly without the slightest consideration; their right to choose is _the_ consideration here. It's not some incidental, inconvenient factor to be dismissed as a 'de facto' input to be taken for granted so you can point the finger unerringly at Apple.

Re: Is Apple Banning Free Analytics SDKs?

#77

Post by _qulr »

simonh wrote: post #76
_qulr wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You avoided my question: from your perspective, why wouldn't Apple ban them if it could? What's wrong with banning? Why is that such an inconvenient narrative for you? Why is it inconvenient for Apple? This feels like just a game where Apple is trying very hard to avoid personal (or legal?) responsibility for its choices by pushing the choice onto users. It seems to me like a cop-out. Again, Apple takes away choices…

The Google/Facebook, etc position is that they should decide what user PII they collect and how they use it. Your position is that it's ok for Apple to decide what user data can be collected and how it's used ("What's wrong with banning?"). But there is a third party here who's opinion is the one that actually matters. If you considered their existence and role here for even a second, the reason why it would be wrong…

> You ignore their existence and role implicitly without the slightest consideration; their right to choose is _the_ consideration here.

This is silly. I said, "Apple takes away choices from users in many other areas". iPhone is an extremely locked down device. Users do not have the right to do what they want with it. (Which I complained about earlier, not being able to install software like Little Snitch on iPhone.) I've been a Mac user for a long time, since before the App Store, before the iPhone, before Gatekeeper, even before code signing existed. I'm very aware of what user choice is about, and iPhone is definitely not at all about user choice.

So, please start over without the fake moralizing, which cannot be taken seriously in this case. The right to choose is almost never Apple's consideration nowadays. There's currently legislation under consideration in North Dakota that would give users the right to choose, but Apple is complaining that it would "destroy iPhone as we know it". Exactly. iPhone is not about user freedom. Everyone knows that... except apparently you.

> so you can point the finger unerringly at Apple

The funny thing is that a lot of iPhone users would praise Apple for banning the SDKs. Only you seem to think that the iPhone is all about user choice. The majority opinion seems to be that Apple's lockdown is good, for the user's "protection". So I'm still puzzled why you even think using the word "ban" is a criticism of Apple.

I can speculate that perhaps an explicit ban would get Apple into antitrust trouble, which may have been what the article author was referring to. But if your argument is, "It's not a ban, because a ban would be legally problematic for Apple", that would not be very convincing argument.

Re: Is Apple Banning Free Analytics SDKs?

#78

Post by simonh »

_qulr wrote: post #77
simonh wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Google/Facebook, etc position is that they should decide what user PII they collect and how they use it. Your position is that it's ok for Apple to decide what user data can be collected and how it's used ("What's wrong with banning?"). But there is a third party here who's opinion is the one that actually matters. If you considered their existence and role here for even a second, the reason why it would be wrong…

> You ignore their existence and role implicitly without the slightest consideration; their right to choose is _the_ consideration here. This is silly. I said, "Apple takes away choices from users in many other areas". iPhone is an extremely locked down device. Users do not have the right to do what they want with it. (Which I complained about earlier, not being able to install software like Little Snitch on iPhone.)…

I'm making no claims about Apple's behaviour on any other issues and I'm not going to be derailed on a tangent. If you have nothing further to say on privacy controls or to address my actual points we're done.

Re: Is Apple Banning Free Analytics SDKs?

#79

Post by _qulr »

simonh wrote: post #78
_qulr wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You ignore their existence and role implicitly without the slightest consideration; their right to choose is _the_ consideration here. This is silly. I said, "Apple takes away choices from users in many other areas". iPhone is an extremely locked down device. Users do not have the right to do what they want with it. (Which I complained about earlier, not being able to install software like Little Snitch on iPhone.)…

I'm making no claims about Apple's behaviour on any other issues and I'm not going to be derailed on a tangent. If you have nothing further to say on privacy controls or to address my actual points we're done.

> I'm making no claims about Apple's behaviour on any other issues and I'm not going to be derailed on a tangent.

It's strange that you think this issue can be discussed as if it's sui generis and completely unrelated to anything else. What you call "a tangent", I call the broader context. So I guess we are done.

Re: Is Apple Banning Free Analytics SDKs?

#80

Post by maccard »

simonh wrote: post #69
laurent92 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But he’s not allowed to withdraw the service if customers don’t agree. Therefore his business model, which was an exchange (not even taking users’ data, only displaying relevant ads), is required to become a donation from him to a good share of his customers, if he wants to keep the other ones who agree to advertising tracking.

Displaying relevant ads requires taking users’ data, and there’s no way to know if that data is also used for other purposes, which it almost always is. Yes this makes some business models harder.

It doesn't really - you can display ads for puzzle games in a puzzle game, or ads for outdoor equipment in a hiking focused all, allcwithout any tracking whatsoever.
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