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Turtle visual cortex is non-retinotopic

blog.jordan.matelsky.com

31–38 of 38 posts

Re: Turtle visual cortex is non-retinotopic

#31

hey, i dont know much about turtology/tortology, nor do i know much about the eye other than i need glasses because my eyes are a weird shape. could somebody ELI5 please. for us plebs.

Disclaimer: this is all _very_ rough and approximate - my only qualifications are that I hung out with neuroscientists in grad school.

You can largely think of mammalian eyeballs as camera sensors, which see the world and pass lightly pre-processed pixel data through cables (your optic nerves) into the back part of your brain where your visual cortex "starts". That pixel-level data flows through a kind of pipeline of filters which detect increasingly complex features the further forward they are in the brain.

The first few layers are detecting fairly understandable things - like little lines bits, and corners that turn left, or turn right, etc. The downstream layers take those detections as inputs to detect more complex features, e.g. helping to detect larger closed shapes and determine which pixels are inside vs. outside those shapes. This data then feeds into higher level object detection, etc etc.

What's really cool is that the first few layers of this are more or less laid out like an image in RAM. A star pattern of shapes in the real world would cause a star pattern of neurons in your head to start firing. This sensible layout has really helped neuroscientists grasp what the brain is doing, and has IMO been one of the big reasons we've been able to take such inspiration from neuroscience into machine vision.

Apparently though, the turtle brain doesn't work like this at all. As far as I can tell, the turtle visual processing system is just a big weird soup of neurons with no familiar structure to it. It works somehow, and I'm excited to follow the progress of decoding what it's actually doing.

By the way, if any of this interests you I recommend grabbing a copy of David Marr's book "Vision". It's probably pretty out-dated at this point, but it's wonderfully written and I think gets the basic points across very well: https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/vision

Re: Turtle visual cortex is non-retinotopic

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people eat meat because they like the taste. It's way less ethical than scientific research into the visual systems of turtles. And the majority of animal research is on pre-clinical treatments for human diseases. I've always been amazed at how animal rights activists target scientists over the animal farming industry.

Animal rights activists regularly target both. They even go as far as doing sit ins in slaughter facilities to show how gruesome and cruel they are to the animals.

I don't think it's proportional. There should be way more on the animal farming industry and way less on scientific research. But that's just my opinion.

Re: Turtle visual cortex is non-retinotopic

#33
post #7

My experience with turtles is confined to reef diving. Turtles are unusual in that they are extremely tolerant of hypoxia. It may be that they have adapted to a relatively shallow network that doesn't parse much, but is pretty good at extracting the most meaningful features (oxygen/energy efficiency favored over information efficiency) I wonder if this patterns persists for other reptiles.

I think it's unrelated. You could say dolphins and whales are "tolerant of hypoxia", yet from their behavior and the layout of their brains it is evident that evolution has not limited "information efficiency" in exchange for "tolerance to hypoxia".

> I think it's unrelated. You could say dolphins and whales are "tolerant of hypoxia", yet from their behavior and the layout of their brains it is evident that evolution has not limited "information efficiency" in exchange for "tolerance to hypoxia".

Not all species will make the same tradeoffs or converge on the same solutions, though.

Re: Turtle visual cortex is non-retinotopic

#34

Colleague of mine was working on research of vision system of a spitting fish. The fish hunts by spitting water at insects sitting on the leaves above the water surface. What they found out that "firing solution" is formed in the retina and passed to the brain to initiate the spit.

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Re: Turtle visual cortex is non-retinotopic

#35
post #3

This is fascinating!

It is fascinating. But I always get uncomfortable reading stuff like this... I mean, they are placing sensors in a turtle’s brain, physically immobilizing it, aiming its head at a screen for a while, and you generally don’t release something to the wild after that. The ethical thing is considered to be killing it. I get that there are a lot of aspects to modern life that sterilize the gruesomeness of reality. Still m…

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Re: Turtle visual cortex is non-retinotopic

#36
post #33
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's unrelated. You could say dolphins and whales are "tolerant of hypoxia", yet from their behavior and the layout of their brains it is evident that evolution has not limited "information efficiency" in exchange for "tolerance to hypoxia".

> I think it's unrelated. You could say dolphins and whales are "tolerant of hypoxia", yet from their behavior and the layout of their brains it is evident that evolution has not limited "information efficiency" in exchange for "tolerance to hypoxia". Not all species will make the same tradeoffs or converge on the same solutions, though.

Usually though if a tradeoff doesn't exist then it doesn't happen. In this case, most likely it's not a tradeoff that's going on it's just parallel lines of evolution.

Re: Turtle visual cortex is non-retinotopic

#37
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's unrelated. You could say dolphins and whales are "tolerant of hypoxia", yet from their behavior and the layout of their brains it is evident that evolution has not limited "information efficiency" in exchange for "tolerance to hypoxia". Not all species will make the same tradeoffs or converge on the same solutions, though.

Usually though if a tradeoff doesn't exist then it doesn't happen. In this case, most likely it's not a tradeoff that's going on it's just parallel lines of evolution.

It's possible that there are other corollary markers that make a trade off possible in one situation and not possible in other situations.

Re: Turtle visual cortex is non-retinotopic

#38
post #13

Colleague of mine was working on research of vision system of a spitting fish. The fish hunts by spitting water at insects sitting on the leaves above the water surface. What they found out that "firing solution" is formed in the retina and passed to the brain to initiate the spit.

Fascinating. Any details available on this?

They had publications on this, but I can't find it now.
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