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Mozilla Welcomes the Rust Foundation

blog.mozilla.org

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Re: Mozilla Welcomes the Rust Foundation

#131

Post by zlynx »

skohan wrote: post #42
KwanEsq wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla already tried re-writing the CSS engine in C++ before. They failed. C++ simply wasn't usable for writing a parallel CSS engine. "This top-down structure is ripe for parallelism; however, since styling is a complex process, it’s hard to get right. Mozilla made two previous attempts to parallelize its style system in C++, and both of them failed. But Rust’s fearless concurrency has made parallelism practical!"…

> C++ simply wasn't usable for writing a parallel CSS engine. I think it can be said that Mozilla was able to use Rust to achieve what they failed to with achieve with C++. It's not justified to claim that C++ is/was not suitable for this purpose. C++ offers direct, low-level control over memory, and C++ can be used to implement anything which can be implemented in Rust. Maybe Rust has certain advantages which made t…

I am certain you are right and C++ could be used.

If you combined it with a strong theorem proof language.

But then, that's a large part of what Rust is so . . .

Re: Mozilla Welcomes the Rust Foundation

#132

Post by eitland »

skohan wrote: post #127
forgetfulness wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean Mozilla, the organization that has maintained a 6 million LOC[1] C++ codebase continuously for nearly 20 years? If they can't pull it off with C++, I don't care who can, C++ is not the right tool for the job and you can file writing such a thing in it as an esoteric programming challenge, together with template Tetris. 1. https://www.openhub.net/p/firefox/analyses/latest/languages_...

What language is the CSS engine used by Chrome or Safari written in?

Two points:

- how does the performance of those fare against Stylo?

- the developer of Chrome is so insanely rich that only a tiny tiny fraction of their budgets in practice finance all of Firefox.

Summary: Mozilla manages to make an equally good or better CSS engine with a lower budget?

(I admit Google might be running the Chrome team on a shoestring but my bet is they don't as coming in a position were they can kill ad blocking really would be a fantastic strategic advantage for them and would be worth billions a year.)

Re: Mozilla Welcomes the Rust Foundation

#133

Post by skohan »

eitland wrote: post #132
skohan wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What language is the CSS engine used by Chrome or Safari written in?

Two points: - how does the performance of those fare against Stylo? - the developer of Chrome is so insanely rich that only a tiny tiny fraction of their budgets in practice finance all of Firefox. Summary: Mozilla manages to make an equally good or better CSS engine with a lower budget? (I admit Google might be running the Chrome team on a shoestring but my bet is they don't as coming in a position were they can kil…

Saying Rust allowed Mozilla to achieve a better result for less money is a much softer claim than saying C++ is an unsuitable language choice for this problem, which is what I was responding to.

The second is the claim I would dispute. The former may be true.

Re: Mozilla Welcomes the Rust Foundation

#134

Post by cpeterso »

johnnycerberus wrote: post #29
KwanEsq wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla already tried re-writing the CSS engine in C++ before. They failed. C++ simply wasn't usable for writing a parallel CSS engine. "This top-down structure is ripe for parallelism; however, since styling is a complex process, it’s hard to get right. Mozilla made two previous attempts to parallelize its style system in C++, and both of them failed. But Rust’s fearless concurrency has made parallelism practical!"…

So you are telling me that a parallel CSS engine can't be usable if written in C++ but large scale particle/molecule simulators, AAA game engines and other high-fidelity simulator environments are 100% C++ codebases?

AAA game engines don’t need to securely execute arbitrary malicious code downloaded from the internet.

Re: Mozilla Welcomes the Rust Foundation

#136

Post by renewiltord »

zimpenfish wrote: post #54
bennyp101 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess that depends on where the engineers are, and how much they are paid - I've never known anyone (in coding) to be paid > £100k (~$140k) - but then maybe I move in the wrong circles! So you could certainly get more than 4 engineers on board, plus some project managers etc

> I've never known anyone (in coding) to be paid > £100k (~$140k) - but then maybe I move in the wrong circles! In London, >£100k is easy for contractors but I think you'd have to have some managerial responsibilities to get that as a perm (team lead or upwards.) But I may also be moving in the wrong circles...

No, there are lots of people who make more than that. I offered more and was turned down by them mid 2017.

Re: Mozilla Welcomes the Rust Foundation

#137

Post by monopoledance »

Mikhail_K wrote: post #96
KwanEsq wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla already tried re-writing the CSS engine in C++ before. They failed. C++ simply wasn't usable for writing a parallel CSS engine. "This top-down structure is ripe for parallelism; however, since styling is a complex process, it’s hard to get right. Mozilla made two previous attempts to parallelize its style system in C++, and both of them failed. But Rust’s fearless concurrency has made parallelism practical!"…

> Mozilla already tried re-writing the CSS engine in C++ before. They failed Blaming the tool for own failure to do the job isn't all that persuasive. > C++ simply wasn't usable for writing a parallel CSS engine. It might be not so much the proof of C++ deficiency as simply another manifestation of mismanagement of the browser development by Mozilla Foundation. > But Rust’s fearless concurrency has made parallelism p…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

Re: Mozilla Welcomes the Rust Foundation

#138

Post by marcosdumay »

skohan wrote: post #126
ardy42 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> C++ offers direct, low-level control over memory, and C++ can be used to implement anything which can be implemented in Rust. Maybe Rust has certain advantages which made this problem a lot easier to solve for Mozilla, and I'm certainly happy to have Rust in the language landscape, but another team with other processes may have been able to use C++ to achieve similar goals. You could say the same thing about assemb…

> You could say the same thing about assembly programming or some language that uses GOTOs instead of structured control constructs ... or Brainfuck. I think this a reduction of the argument to the point of absurdity. C++ and Rust are certainly much more similar in terms of form and capability than C++ and brainfuck. > Claims about this or that language being unsuitable for a problem aren't really about stuff like Tu…

> C++ and Rust are certainly much more similar in terms of form and capability than C++ and brainfuck.

From the point of view of somebody creating a highly interdependent parallel system, no, it's the other way around. On the features that matter to parallel systems, C++ is much closer to brainfuck than it's to Rust.

Re: Mozilla Welcomes the Rust Foundation

#139

Post by brendoelfrendo »

bennyp101 wrote: post #41
justsomeuser wrote: post #31

Isn’t a million dollar yearly budget really low considering how rich those companies are? That’s like 4 full time engineers. Not even a 5 a side football team.

I guess that depends on where the engineers are, and how much they are paid - I've never known anyone (in coding) to be paid > £100k (~$140k) - but then maybe I move in the wrong circles! So you could certainly get more than 4 engineers on board, plus some project managers etc

The UK is, from what I've seen, a really low-paying market for IT and software engineering. At the big FAANG companies, you can make more than that as a new graduate (pre-tax, cash compensation only). I don't like generalizing on the FAANGs, because they are not the majority of the market, but even outside of NYC/Silicon Valley, developers can clear $140k after a few years of experience.

Re: Mozilla Welcomes the Rust Foundation

#140

Post by nickelcitymario »

bluGill wrote: post #122
eska wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making two teams compete like that is a horrible idea. Both teams know that no matter how hard they work, their work may be thrown away. I've heard horror stories like this in a post mortem about the development of Sonic 3D for Saturn back then for example. There were two teams tasked with making a sequel, and only the better one would be released. Management's idea was that it was supposed to be a flagship title and…

Even if the above doesn't happen, it is hard to say what you learn from two teams. Maybe one team is worse. Maybe one team got lucky because the serious bug was 1 in a million and not found, while the other spent weeks tracking down a similar level of complexity bug that happened every time and so had to be fixed... I can come up with more. The only thing fair is to give one team 6 months (ideally with a couple contr…

Totally fair @eska and @bluGill. I really wasn't thinking in terms of "This is the right way to manage a project." I was simply trying to identify some way to do a better and more accurate comparison between Rust and C++.

You're perfectly right that it would be awful to be pitched against each other in this way.

So I recant my suggestion, but maintain my critique about using lines of code in a single project as somehow validating a language choice. There are too many variables. And, more to the point, the refactored code will almost always be much better, regardless of the language selected.

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