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Elfstedentocht

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Re: Elfstedentocht

#71

Post by Gravityloss »

codetrotter wrote: post #12
m463 wrote: post #11

When I was a kid, I grew up in the US where we had snow in the winter but we had to walk or take a bus to school. People would say folks in scandanavian countries were able to skate to school or work and we would all just dream how amazing it would be.

I grew up in a Scandinavian country but have never been able to skate to school. We have a lot of snow and ice but only the ice on the lakes and the arenas has been appropriate for skating where I grew up. The ice on the roads between my home and my schools has not been skateable with skates. Short stretches of it maybe.

If there's no sand, you could use a potkukelkka / kick sled. Back in the old times, old people especially could use this to get to the store when it was very slippery.

https://retkirent.fi/listings/813151-esla-potkukelkka-taittu...

Re: Elfstedentocht

#72

Post by Aeolun »

janvdberg wrote: post #9

The organisation behind it has already ruled there wont be an event this year no matter how thick the ice gets. But people get the “fever” every time the temperature drops below 0 Celcius. This happens every year, it’s a thing. Also because of next month’s elections some opportunistic/populistic partys are using this event as the hill to die on, hoping to catch some votes and ignoring what people might really be catc…

I cannot imagine anyone catching covid while traveling at 40 km/h over the ice.

It’s basically impossible to get outside in the first place (unless you are standing mouth to mouth with someone).

Re: Elfstedentocht

#73

Post by Vinnl »

vanderZwan wrote: post #60
TeMPOraL wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't 24 years well past the point of anyone caring? That's a whole generation of people becoming adults without ever experiencing the event. I think after 24 years without Superbowl, Americans would just consider it a historical curiosity, and holding it again wouldn't be a national priority.

It only makes the event more mythological. Also, it's easy for non-Dutch to underestimate how big of a deal speedskating is to the Dutch (and how big of a deal the Dutch are in speedskating). EDIT: I'll attempt to give an impression. The medal count at the 2018 Winter Olympics might be a good starting point, look at how the Dutch dominated that event[0]. Keep in mind that we're a really tiny nation, so that suggests…

I didn't know [2], but that was lovely.

That said, the same things you said hold for Korfball as well, which definitely doesn't whip up the same fervour as an Elfstedentocht does.

Re: Elfstedentocht

#74

Post by Denvercoder9 »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #58
armada651 wrote: post #4

This is kind of the equivalent of the Superbowl for the Dutch, but due to global warming it hasn't been held in 24 years. The previous longest interval was 22 years, so some people are starting to doubt whether it will ever happen again. Imagine if the real Superbowl wasn't held in 24 years due to global warming and may never happen again, perhaps then it would be more of a priority.

Isn't 24 years well past the point of anyone caring? That's a whole generation of people becoming adults without ever experiencing the event. I think after 24 years without Superbowl, Americans would just consider it a historical curiosity, and holding it again wouldn't be a national priority.

While the Elfstedentocht hasn't been held in 24 years, in that period we've had quite a few winters with enough frost to hold smaller, regional tour tour skating events (which can still attract 50,000+ people over the span of a few days). At least twice we came within a few days of organizing the Elfstedentocht. It's enough to keep the spirit alive, and it makes the event itself even more mythical.

Re: Elfstedentocht

#75

Post by Freak_NL »

hobofan wrote: post #67
cr1895 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sort of heightened security measures? I think nothing of the sort would hamper an Elfstedentocht. The Vierdaagse is also a mass volunteer-driven event and it happens regularly. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Four_Days_Marc...

I mean the sort that tries to make sure that everything possible is done to ensure the safety of the participants. E.g. halos (and many other things) in F1 cars, helmets in baseball, minimizing crosswinds in ski flying, etc.. For Elfstedentocht this could mean making sure the ice is 15cms thick along the entire track, and only starting it if you are 100% sure that this is guaranteed. I would question whether the orga…

No, this is not an issue for this particular event. The last time we came close was 2012, but even then the ice was only 10 or 12cm thick on large parts of the route. This is most emphatically the result of a changing climate. On eleven of the fifteen occurrences of this event the ice measured 25cm of thickness.

Re: Elfstedentocht

#76

Post by Denvercoder9 »

Tijdreiziger wrote: post #5
armada651 wrote: post #4

This is kind of the equivalent of the Superbowl for the Dutch, but due to global warming it hasn't been held in 24 years. The previous longest interval was 22 years, so some people are starting to doubt whether it will ever happen again. Imagine if the real Superbowl wasn't held in 24 years due to global warming and may never happen again, perhaps then it would be more of a priority.

> This is kind of the equivalent of the Superbowl for the Dutch Uh, I'm not too familiar with the Superbowl, but the title of 'most popular televised sporting event in the Netherlands' definitely goes to the football world championship.

> the title of 'most popular televised sporting event in the Netherlands' definitely goes to the football world championship

Source? The last Elfstedentocht in 1997 had 9.2 million people watching it [1], while the semi-final of the Dutch national team in the world cup in 2014 had 9.1 million people watching it [2], and population had grown by ~1.5 million people in between.

[1] https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijftiende_Elfstedentocht#Reco... [2] https://kijkonderzoek.nl/component/kijkcijfers/file,j1-6-1-p

Re: Elfstedentocht

#77

Post by azepoi »

philshem wrote: post #20

Lake Zürich (Zürisee) last froze in 1963. Videos: https://youtu.be/eauucwl6C24 Short docu-film (DE) https://youtu.be/3_N-wWNXdmQ More details (DE) https://www.stadt-zuerich.ch/pd/de/index/stadtpolizei_zueric... Previous years with a frozen lake: > 1223 / 1259 / 1262 / 1407 / 1491 / 1514 / 1517 / 1573 / 1600 / 1660 / 1684 /1695 / 1709 / 1716 / 1718 / 1740 / 1755 / 1763 / 1789 / 1830 / 1880 / 1891 / 1895 / 1929 / 1963…

Lakes can also be subject to tsunamis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tauredunum_event

Re: Elfstedentocht

#78

Post by Freak_NL »

rocqua wrote: post #66
cr1895 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sort of heightened security measures? I think nothing of the sort would hamper an Elfstedentocht. The Vierdaagse is also a mass volunteer-driven event and it happens regularly. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Four_Days_Marc...

I think they meant safety as in 'assurance no one will fall through the ice'. As in, by the standards of the 40s they might have let the 2012 race go on despite the ice quality.

In 1940 the ice had a record 41cm of thickness, in 1941 and 1942 the winters were harsh and the thickness of the ice was not a concern either. Only in 1917 was the ice on the thin side at 15cm, which is the minimal thickness for the event to be considered still today.

The standards haven't changed much. The climate has.

Re: Elfstedentocht

#79

Post by rocqua »

lcrz wrote: post #39
jillesvangurp wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Political pressure will be enormous if the conditions are right in a week or so. With elections happening in a month or so, it's unlikely the rules won't change as political pressure mounts. You have to imagine covid being secondary to this news item in the Netherlands between now and when this decision needs to happen. The flip side is that for 10-15 centimeters of ice to happen over a 200km route, the freezing temp…

> it's unlikely the rules won't change as political pressure mounts. No. It's extremely unlikely the rules WILL change. With curfew extended for another month, there is an as good as zero chance they will drop 1.5m rules (which is what the committee has based their decision on) before March.

An exception being made for the event, perhaps with strong travel restrictions towards the event, seems within the realm of possibility.

For better or for worse, the dutch government has shown pretty big flexibility and a willingness to deviate from stated plans based on new information and public pressure. I would say there's at least a 20% chance the government would change rules to allow this to happen.

Re: Elfstedentocht

#80

Post by Denvercoder9 »

Aeolun wrote: post #72
janvdberg wrote: post #9

The organisation behind it has already ruled there wont be an event this year no matter how thick the ice gets. But people get the “fever” every time the temperature drops below 0 Celcius. This happens every year, it’s a thing. Also because of next month’s elections some opportunistic/populistic partys are using this event as the hill to die on, hoping to catch some votes and ignoring what people might really be catc…

I cannot imagine anyone catching covid while traveling at 40 km/h over the ice. It’s basically impossible to get outside in the first place (unless you are standing mouth to mouth with someone).

> I cannot imagine anyone catching covid while traveling at 40 km/h over the ice.

The big issue isn't the skating itself, but the logistics at start/finish and the stempelposten with its congestion, as well as the 1 to 1.5 million spectators over a course of 200 km with their parties and alcohol consumption, and the logistics to get everyone there and back (full trains and busses).

> It’s basically impossible to get outside in the first place (unless you are standing mouth to mouth with someone).

Source?

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