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Stop defacing quotes with brackets

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Re: Stop defacing quotes with brackets

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is already a thing. Simply put it in brackets and insert it into the quote. Overwriting the quote makes the expression unclear, which does require readers seek original expressions or otherwise speculate.

I don’t think that “Heather spoke to [Sam] to the conference” vs “Heather spoke to her [Sam] at the conference” provides all that much meaningful clarity.

It comes down to what brackets mean, and the reader understanding what is quoted.

In your second example, the quote is clear, verbatim as quotes are intended to be.

In the first example, what has been clear, precise syntax is not a matter of ambiguity.

In your example, it's somewhat clear, but inference is required to understand what was said.

The example given in the article actually does bring genuine ambiguity to what would otherwise be a precise, easily understood expression:

They may groan when Corky, denied the massive funding he’s asked for, tells the town council he’s going to “go home and bite [his] pillow,” the way I do now.

Did Corky say, "go home and bite pillow" broken English style?

Or, did Corky say something else?

Until this construct, we would know because "[his]" would be added into quote context. It would not be a modifier, essentially hiding or changing the quote.

Notably, what Corky did say isn't actually present in the expression, meaning we have to now trust the author interpreting things for us.

Breaking the line with how brackets are used is going to lead to significantly increased ambiguity, and that's going to happen because it will be employed to spin or otherwise manage far less trivial examples, and sorting it out will all take considerably more effort than it all would otherwise be, given brackets are never normally used to modify a quote itself.

And all for a bit of flow? I don't buy it. The whole affair diminishes how robust brackets are and introduced ambiguity into expression that does not add any real value.

Re: Stop defacing quotes with brackets

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoting the meaning, not the words.

We do not quote meanings. Quote is a literal expression, verbatim. Or it is a precise statement, form of contract, part of offer and acceptance. Perhaps you intended something else?

Hey there naysayers! :D

Care to provide an example where we quote meaning?

I will read with great interest!

Re: Stop defacing quotes with brackets

#183
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, there is a cost to being precise. We can think of other ways to make it shorter, but we should respect the integrity of what is in quotes. Another option: Spitballing: "It is not worth doing," she said, [it=foobar]. We do this all the time in programming languages. Without introducing too much syntax, this is doable.

I'd say we only do something like that in programming if there's a benefit to using other values for `it` in other contexts, and if we'd like to refer to a template `"It is not worth doing" by name. If you're just going to use it once, or if all usages have `[it=foobar]`, I don't think you'd do it. I could imagine doing something like what you mention if I had moved code from another context, and I wanted to have a c…

> If you're just going to use it once, or if all usages have `[it=foobar]`, I don't think you'd do it.

If you never pulled out code into its own separate function just in order to name some lines of code, you should give it a try. You can avoid a lot of comments and/or confusion by just structuring your code in a way that allows you to name lines of code as concepts and abstractions. No need for it to happen more than once for you to do so.

Re: Stop defacing quotes with brackets

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that the standard syntax? I've always been led to believe square brackets are used to insert words that don't exist in the quote. > "go home and bite my [his] pillow." To me makes way more sense. If I was to read "go home and bite [his] pillow." I would assume the person being quoted had said ""go home and bite pillow." which makes almost no sense.

Yes, it is standard. Search the thread for MLA or manual. Academic papers are done this way and have been for a long time, and it's not hard to understand.

I've not seen a paper with it yet, and doing it introduces an ambiguity into an otherwise clean, parsable syntax. And frankly, doing that is completely unnecessary. Adds pretty much zero value, and is presumptuous.

I am quite sure you can show me one too, and the point being this isn't in broad use just yet. Should not be.

Frankly, this reminds me of the one space after sentence mess. Similar reasons have been given. It reads better! It flows better! You get the idea here.

But, ever notice how often your mobile device gets capitalization wrong?

This is why!

The same people who thought cleaning up that one space made sense did not think through the parsing implications. One space means we no longer have a way to differentiate an end to a sentence from an abbreviation.

That nice, clean space has already cost untold human hours spent on hobbled user input. Your phone literally has no way to capitalize in a more effective, assistive way. (same goes for any code assistant depending on that information, which is lost in the one space after sentence scenario.)

Here we have a similar thing. If the brackets are allowed to overwrite quoted material, then we lose the ability to differentiate some of how brackets are used, which means we've made our language and grammar more ambiguous, and for what?

The example given in the article highlights this perfectly!

Given the use: go home and bite [his] pillow

Did Corky say, "go home and bite pillow" , or was something else said, and if something else was said, what was it, and why was it not simply quoted?

Re: Stop defacing quotes with brackets

#185
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is already a thing. Simply put it in brackets and insert it into the quote. Overwriting the quote makes the expression unclear, which does require readers seek original expressions or otherwise speculate.

Yeah, that is a better solution. It's a simple, clear rule: never alter the original quote, but you can insert bracketed words to make it clearer.

And it's parsable.

I think back to the one period after sentence move we've seen play out for a while now.

When two spaces are used, end of sentence is a parsable thing, easily differentiated from other uses, such as abbreviations.

Without them, assistive technology gets capitalization wrong all the time.

This kind of thing makes problem spaces way larger and more complicated than they need to be.

Re: Stop defacing quotes with brackets

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good way to think about it. I couldn't think of a rule for when I drop the article. I guess for the state in the US we would say "hospitalized". So I would say "he was hospitalized", unless the identity of "they" in the original quote was important.

Seeing as you've brought up an '-ized' word... Can you explain the US usage of the word 'Burglarized', when 'Burgled' is perfectly adequate? I know online dictionaries say both are correct, but irregardless[1] it's one of those words that really irritates me. -- [1] Yes, using that word is an attempt at written humour.

"Burgle" is not a particularly common verb (746k results for "burgle" with quotes on Google) compared to "burglar" (40m), so it's not on the tip of the tongue.

The American instinct is then to reconstruct a verb from the more common noun, and the -ize pattern fits.

I'd guess that if you asked an American, they'd say that a burglar robs.

Re: Stop defacing quotes with brackets

#187
post #63
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO using ellipsis [...] or modifying quotes in order to present them in a new context is totally okay, as long as you don't alter the original intended meaning fundamentally by doing so. After all quoting someone at all is already an act of tearing their words out of the context they have been put in by that author. You can misquote someone badly without brackets, while you can quote someone faithfully with brackets…

> as long as you don't alter the original intended meaning fundamentally by doing so Yeah but that's almost always what's happening when you see those tiny quotes; the author is pushing a narrative and using a sound it to sell it. Particularly in political news and places like Slate..

No it isn't.

If $Author writes: "The foundations of the notion of fluid modernity (as outlined in the previous chapters) is fundamentally the simultaneity of dichotomies".

And I quote them as: "The foundations of the notion of fluid modernity [...] is fundamentally the simultaneity of dichotomies". I am not in any way changing their intended message. The author in that case reminded their reader about something they read in the previous chapter, something my readers cannot be reminded of, unless they also read the book recently. Therefore skipping that part with an ellipsis arguably would even be in the interest of $Author, because it isn't their quote that throws my readers off without $Author's fault.

This is just one example. Another very typical case would be if I'd write about $Person and quote someone who wrote "Jules Favre traveled to Königsberg in 1871 to negotiate peace with the Prussians, where he was met with ..."

Then if I'd write in the context of my text: "[He] traveled to Königsberg in 1871 to negotiate peace with the Prussians, where he was met with ..." wouldn't this again be totally okay if it improves readability in the context of my text?

The stuff I outline here is extremely common in theoretical, philosophical or historical texts. The existence of abusive misquoting doesn't mean one cannot use brackets in a responsible and good way (and you can also misquote without brackets).

Re: Stop defacing quotes with brackets

#188
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a way to do that by adding context outside the quote but keep the quote verbatim. "It's an older code, sir, but it checks out", the officer said, referring to the stolen access code Han had just provided, stolen from god knows where, god knows how long ago. See, now the original quote is undisturbed and the added context is less authoritative (on purpose), since it is not inserted into the quote. The provena…

But now you’ve basically doubled or tripled the length of the whole sentence. The primary usage I see of this is to replace some second or third person pronoun with the actual name of the person, which is much simpler than appending a short biography of the person and trivially easy to verify.

I've had this hit me directly with a serious sting. A company in which I was employed became subject of a state investigation, and the local newspaper wrote a story about the problem including a quote from a state investigator something like this: "They definitely have a problem (with XYZ)." XYZ was done in my department. The state investigator had made no mention of XYZ. The reporter had simply clarified the quote erroneously; XYZ had nothing to do with the problem. The state investigator would not say that he was mis-quoted, because the parenthetical material is not part of the quote, and the paper refused to correct the story for the same reason. But to any reader who does not know this obscure exception to the rule that what's in quotes is what they said, it meant I was the smartest guy in the room when and where things went bad.

Re: Stop defacing quotes with brackets

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think that “Heather spoke to [Sam] to the conference” vs “Heather spoke to her [Sam] at the conference” provides all that much meaningful clarity.

It comes down to what brackets mean, and the reader understanding what is quoted. In your second example, the quote is clear, verbatim as quotes are intended to be. In the first example, what has been clear, precise syntax is not a matter of ambiguity. In your example, it's somewhat clear, but inference is required to understand what was said. The example given in the article actually does bring genuine ambiguity to…

Whenever I see “go home and bite [his] pillow”, I’ve always assumed the person spoke quickly and/or skipped a word, which the editor thought should be added. It never occurred to me before now that the editor actually replaced a word!

Re: Stop defacing quotes with brackets

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It comes down to what brackets mean, and the reader understanding what is quoted. In your second example, the quote is clear, verbatim as quotes are intended to be. In the first example, what has been clear, precise syntax is not a matter of ambiguity. In your example, it's somewhat clear, but inference is required to understand what was said. The example given in the article actually does bring genuine ambiguity to…

Whenever I see “go home and bite [his] pillow”, I’ve always assumed the person spoke quickly and/or skipped a word, which the editor thought should be added. It never occurred to me before now that the editor actually replaced a word!

Me too, which lowers my opinion of the speaker!
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