Live data from Hacker News

The Queen has more power over British law than we thought

theguardian.com

21–30 of 599 posts

Re: The Queen has more power over British law than we thought

#21
post #10
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's kind of the fault of voters, the political class, and the media, though. The Queen's practical impact on the situation is practically nil.

Did you read the article? Apparently what is widely assumed to be a pro forma aspect of the legislative process has, in fact, been used to make substantive changes to legislature before it's even presented to parliament and this is done in a manner outside of public view.

On the other hand, is this process really that different than the usual process of legislation being crafted in private by people who aren't the Queen before it's presented?

It is worrying that the Queen can just say no before legislation gets off the ground, but that's true of many of the more powerful MPs, too. I'm in the US, so I'm not exactly familiar with the process on your side of the pond, but over here, we have legislation stopped before pen hits paper simply because it's clear that the current leaders will never allow a vote on it.

That is a broken system, yes, but given the length of time people in those positions tend to serve (and I use that term lightly), it doesn't seem like the Queen's influence is much more. And at least her input doesn't suffer from being completely partisan.

To be abundantly clear: I don't think this is right, I just don't think it's very different than any other politician impeding democracy. Kings and Queens can and have been voted out, too.

Re: The Queen has more power over British law than we thought

#22
post #5

Parliament is sovereign. Consequently, the Queen has exactly as much power as Parliment allows. Sure, the Queen could decide to exercise her power outside of the constrained ways she currently does, but the very likely effect of that is a vote to strip her of her power.

Parliament is sovereign.

This is always a fun start to any argument about the constitution of the UK.

The thing is, you're building on a foundation that could potentially be challenged. As we discovered during the Brexit debates, people are happy to use words like "parliamentary sovereignty" when it suits their purposes, yet clearly many of them have never actually read Dicey, much less understood its entire argument or what the resulting concept of parliamentary sovereignty really means. And of course Dicey himself was not empowered with any special authority, but rather assembled a rational argument based primarily on historical precedent, which has subsequently been broadly accepted by figures in authority in the UK but is still, like everything else about our constitution, more a matter of convention than clear popular mandate.

Perhaps more importantly, if Parliament really is constitutionally sovereign, in the sense that its rules are supreme over all others and nothing a current parliament does can ever bind a future parliament, then we can never improve our system of government by adopting a formal written constitution, even if doing so would have overwhelming public support at the time. If you're going to make any argument about improving the constitution, starting from a foundation that necessarily precludes the single most important improvement that could be made might not be the best idea.

Re: The Queen has more power over British law than we thought

#23
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People keep assuming it's a democracy and they're often told they are in charge, then somehow things never go their way...

That's kind of the fault of voters, the political class, and the media, though. The Queen's practical impact on the situation is practically nil.

Except she has been repeatedly caught using the situation to her advantage and she presides over the whole mess...

Re: The Queen has more power over British law than we thought

#24

I used to work as a scholar of Britain (specifically executions in Early Modern England, but you pick up a lot along the way) and I've tried to explain to a lot of people the amount of influence and control that the monarch actually holds. I'm not sure that this is such a bad thing. The Queen can't create legislation, she can restrain it. She is purely a moderating influence in this sense. She could, in theory, name…

Interesting, does that mean that the Queen has implicitly agreed to a lot of controversial legislation (e.g. Internal Market Bill, and Brexit more generally), or the process of the proroguing parliament last year? It seems she might be a lot more conservative (lowercase) than many might like to think.

Re: The Queen has more power over British law than we thought

#25
post #5

Parliament is sovereign. Consequently, the Queen has exactly as much power as Parliment allows. Sure, the Queen could decide to exercise her power outside of the constrained ways she currently does, but the very likely effect of that is a vote to strip her of her power.

I think we've heard enough about sovereignity in the UK recently to recognize that it is sovereignity is always contingent and somewhat ambiguous.

Re: The Queen has more power over British law than we thought

#26
post #10
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's kind of the fault of voters, the political class, and the media, though. The Queen's practical impact on the situation is practically nil.

Did you read the article? Apparently what is widely assumed to be a pro forma aspect of the legislative process has, in fact, been used to make substantive changes to legislature before it's even presented to parliament and this is done in a manner outside of public view.

The article links to this which itemises what the three known instances were. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/08/queen-lobbie...

So the Queen's advisers lobbied for a royal commission to not be possible to scrap by executive order (but it was scrapped anyway), for the royal estates to be exempt from road traffic regulation (all private land is) and some Queen's Estate representatives threatened to complain to a senior minister in a meeting with civil servants about the impact of a bill which the Queen gave assent to anyway. Over the space of half a century. If there are other instances where royal representatives were a roadblock rather than on of many special interests whose opinion they humour, the incentives for politicians to publicise them are strong.

I think that's more consistent with the monarch's impact being "practically nil" than her being the reason things never go people's way. There's an argument that's more legislative discussion than the representatives of a ceremonial monarch should be participating in, but you don't pressure civil servants by threatening to tell the Chancellor you're gravely concerned if you're actually pulling the strings.

Re: The Queen has more power over British law than we thought

#27
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what the article is about.

I'm reacting to the central conceit of the piece, that this process of royal consent is somehow undemocratic. This is the system of government that the people of Britain have chosen, and the impact of the queen is exclusively a political problem. If there was a serious difference between the will of Parliament (Commons) and the Queen, the result is a foregone conclusion.

This is the system of government that the people of Britain have chosen

There is surprisingly little basis for arguing that the people of the UK have ever chosen almost anything important about our current system of government. That system is largely based on historical conventions, often dating back centuries and in some cases to the outcomes of civil war, and the status quo has several built-in feedback loops that make it difficult to change even with widespread popular support. The constitution of the UK is a fascinating subject, but it can also be rather uncomfortable subject matter to study if you believe in ideas like democracy and civil liberties.

Re: The Queen has more power over British law than we thought

#28
post #10
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's kind of the fault of voters, the political class, and the media, though. The Queen's practical impact on the situation is practically nil.

Did you read the article? Apparently what is widely assumed to be a pro forma aspect of the legislative process has, in fact, been used to make substantive changes to legislature before it's even presented to parliament and this is done in a manner outside of public view.

Royal powers went away in 1689. The Queen's role here is entirely pro forma, and she cannot alter legislation.

The fact that governments have sought her approval on matters, despite not being required to do so, isn't remotely surprising. And if you didn't care about the state providing a privileged life for the royals before, why would you care now?

The fact is, not enough people care enough to make it a political priority.

Re: The Queen has more power over British law than we thought

#29
post #17

I was hoping the Queen's consent would be about things like foreign policy, going to war, etc. But it's just about laws that could possibly affect the Queen's income. That sounds just like garden variety corruption.

Well, the article says that we don't really know, it just references a pamphlet. My understanding (and take this for what you will) is that it's interpreted very liberally. So, foreign policy and war are likely taken into account.

Re: The Queen has more power over British law than we thought

#30
post #17

I was hoping the Queen's consent would be about things like foreign policy, going to war, etc. But it's just about laws that could possibly affect the Queen's income. That sounds just like garden variety corruption.

Corrupted implies a previous state of uncorruption.
Post reply on HN