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What happens when the NYT and New Yorker make mistakes

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Re: What happens when the NYT and New Yorker make mistakes

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of those supporters still support Fox though, no? How many are actually against Fox, never watch it, and advocate against it? Perhaps that number is bigger than I’m imagining, but I doubt it. Edgy comments online saying Fox sucks for a week because they didn’t do a good enough job isn’t the same thing. That’s still on Fox’s side. I don’t think the comparison is the same. Maybe for Democracy Now and some progress…

> Most of those supporters still support Fox though, no? How many are actually against Fox, never watch it, and advocate against it? Seems like a lot. That's why OAN and Newsmax grew so fast. > I don’t think the comparison is the same. Maybe for Democracy Now and some progressive YouTuber/online shows. Democracy Now and TYT are the progressive version of OAN/Newsmax. MSNBC is the progressive version of Fox.

From minor anecdotal musings of conservatives I know, they will sometimes say negative things about Fox and be more pro OAN/Newsmax, but they aren’t principally opposed to Fox or hate it out right.

TYT and Democracy Now overlap, but TYT is almost purely neoliberal stuff. Perhaps I don’t understand the nuance between OAN/Newsmax though.

It’s not hard to dislike MSNBC and not watch it while being into Democracy Now. It makes sense. If you’re into Chapo Trap House, you’re completely opposed to MSNBC.

You can see the differences just from seeing how Reddit’s Ohanion did a classic neoliberal move weeks before Chapo’s ban of saying his board seat should go to a minority. A move MSNBC would say congrats, work accomplished to. Unlike progressives.

You can also see the general difference of how things are viewed based on the attention The Donald subreddit got for their ban vs Chapo. Trump’s subreddit was a 4-5x bigger, but took up almost all the news cycle vs the other subreddits.

It’s not as simple as Democracy Now on left is a mirror of Newsmax on the right.

Either way, we are mostly in agreement. We are talking about details vs any bigger disagreement.

Cheers

Re: What happens when the NYT and New Yorker make mistakes

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems inherent in the definitions of a conservative/traditionalist party and progressive/change based party. I don't really buy this. Despite parties using those terms, they don't really mean anything when any given thing had been the status quo at some point in history. Were the people who opposed sodomy laws in the 20th century agents of change, or reactionaries pining for the way things were in the time of th…

>I don't really buy this. Despite parties using those terms, they don't really mean anything when any given thing had been the status quo at some point in history. I think that most conservatives don't look to some distant point in the past, but the status quo now, or perhaps some time earlier in their lifetime. If you view all over your examples through this lens, the ambiguity is resolved. If you look at conservati…

> I think that most conservatives don't look to some distant point in the past, but the status quo now, or perhaps some time earlier in their lifetime. If you view all over your examples through this lens, the ambiguity is resolved.

Is it? So a 45 year old Democrat is a "conservative" for opposing abortion restrictions because Roe v. Wade was decided before they were born? Or would become one later in life as people born before the decision die out, just from the passage of time and no change in policy? Someone who wants to cut federal spending is a "liberal" because it has been this high a percentage of GDP as long as anyone currently alive can remember?

> If you don't agree with this view, what alternative do you propose? Are conservative and progressive values and interests random? What values inform the positions they take and how they change over time?

The terms themselves aren't very useful because they're poorly defined. Trade tariffs are an ancient idea that have been enacted and repealed more than once in living memory. Liberal or conservative? I'm not sure it even makes sense to ask the question. It's more like populist vs. globalist.

The one dimensional axis only comes about as a result of the two party system. So what you're really asking is where the positions of Democrats vs. Republicans come from, and then the answer is a lot more obvious. They're political coalitions.

Ask yourself what abortion has to do with minimum wage. Basically nothing, right? You can try to come up with some kind of justification, like maybe having fewer people competing for jobs would lead to higher wages. But then you would expect the pro-abortion party to be the anti-immigration party. Oops.

It's not a coherent philosophy. It's a patchwork coalition that yields enough support to have a majority in the legislature about half of the time.

They change when the math changes. For example, some combination of the falling cost of renewable energy and worldwide efforts to fight climate change are probably about to devastate the oil industry, a major Republican constituency. They're not just going to resign themselves to a permanent minority, they're going to find some way to get back to 50%.

That means either stealing some constituency from the Democrats or taking one of theirs off the table. They're in a decent position right now to take out the teachers unions through school choice programs, for example.

Then the Democrats have to decide whether to let them or fight. If they let them, their platform changes. They don't have to be subservient to the teachers unions anymore, which could have knock on effects for other positions they couldn't previously take because the unions didn't like them. In a lot of ways that helps them, and all it costs them is the votes they won't need if the Republicans simultaneously lose the oil industry.

If they fight there, the Republicans are forced to take some other constituency instead. Maybe they push harder with the economic populism that won them the rust belt in 2016, and take it from the Democrats permanently. That could be worse for Democrats than dissolving the teachers unions; those are some important swing states. The Democrats would then have to find a way to win them back or win some other states instead.

So one thing changes and you get a chain reaction that reshapes the positions of both of the parties. It's not ideology, it's pragmatism.

Re: What happens when the NYT and New Yorker make mistakes

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't really buy this. Despite parties using those terms, they don't really mean anything when any given thing had been the status quo at some point in history. I think that most conservatives don't look to some distant point in the past, but the status quo now, or perhaps some time earlier in their lifetime. If you view all over your examples through this lens, the ambiguity is resolved. If you look at conservati…

> I think that most conservatives don't look to some distant point in the past, but the status quo now, or perhaps some time earlier in their lifetime. If you view all over your examples through this lens, the ambiguity is resolved. Is it? So a 45 year old Democrat is a "conservative" for opposing abortion restrictions because Roe v. Wade was decided before they were born? Or would become one later in life as people…

I still think we are talking past each other.

My main point was supporting the validity of the relatively static republican position in the PEW data you introduced and later defended.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/interactives/political-...

I see your claim that all political parties seek change, and agree with it. Political parties are inherently a mechanism for enacting change (or denying it)

My claims, formulated more specifically are as follows:

1) I think the trend in the figure you presented with a smaller shift in median republican views shift less than median democrat views from 1994-2017 is realistic.

I think you agree.

2) I think the slower shift in mean republican views is because individual republicans are slower to change their social views.

2A) I think republicans are slower to change their views because. This is associated with respect for "authority" "traditionalism" in the framework of moral foundations theory [1]

2A1) I think there are real differences in the average moral values of republicans and democrats. Neither group is homogeneous, but on average, individuals gravitate towards one party or another based on the moral framework they view the world through. I agree this is a two way feedback, were party affiliation and media consumption can also shift ones moral framework.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_foundations_theory

Re: What happens when the NYT and New Yorker make mistakes

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I go to cnn.com when I want to see the latest draft of "1984 v2.0". It's really that bad. Glenn Greenwald explained that when he asked his US journalist friends why they only parrot leftist narratives, they replied they had to or they'd lose their job and all their friends. One of the NY Times editors "resigned" because he said burning downtowns should be countered with the National Guard - in other words stopping an…

The NY Times editor who "resigned" didn't say burning downtowns should be countered with the National Guard. He approved the publishing of an op-ed from a US Senator that approved of sending in the national guard. The editor was attacked for allowing "hate speech" in the paper and forced to resign.

How is preventing arson, which is a capital crime, hate speech?

Re: What happens when the NYT and New Yorker make mistakes

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess being aware of bias is not part of the "smart" equation?

Being aware of bias is in no way the same as being unaffected by it. In fact you can imagine the possibility where being aware of a bias allows one to believe that they are unable to be affected by it and thus pay less attention to whether their thinking is flawed.

So i guess "paying more attention" to flawed thinking is not part of the "smart" equation? See where this leads? I'll be direct: the concept of "smart" is vague and has different meanings to different people, and different measures, so to say "smart" people are like this or like that doesn't make sense.

Re: What happens when the NYT and New Yorker make mistakes

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought cancel culture was about trying to get individuals fired for things unrelated to their work?

It's evolving. Cancer now wants everyone cancelled.

Replace "cancelled" with "held accountable for their actions"
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