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Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

bbc.com

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Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#41

Post by manux »

lm28469 wrote: post #20
Nextgrid wrote: post #3

I'm no Facebook fan but the reasons behind the lawsuit are bad and could set a bad precedent. Cambridge Analytica used the Facebook API to ask users to share data about them & their friends. Stupid users agreed to that. The argument here isn't that Facebook is playing fast and loose with tracking & user data (which would be a legitimate argument), it's that Facebook is allowing people to grant access to their data to…

> Stupid users agreed to that. This is on the level of "poor people should just stop being poor" or "she was raped because she didn't dress decently enough" On on side you have a mega corp doing all it can to harvest as much data as possible, backed by behavioural analysis, AB testing, and all kind of studies on how to trick people's brain into feeding the algorithm with more data points. On the other hand you have "…

Yeah, this whole "people are stupid" argument is incredibly dismissive. Not surprising of tech people's giant ego.

Do people really want their doctor to invest several hours a week understanding the latest shenanigans and dangers of technology? Or should we just let our doctors be good doctors? Replace "doctor" by any other non-tech profession you respect, and you get my point.

This isn't even about protecting "stupid" people, it's about letting people be useful members of society even if they're not tech experts.

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#42

Post by PeterisP »

bzb6 wrote: post #10
JKCalhoun wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may be mistaken, but I understood that "stupid users" allowed access to their friends/contacts as well. I guess I'm stupid too if I have a stupid friend or relative.

If your friend has view access to your profile, why shouldn’t he be able to extract that information via an API as well?

Someone who has view access to my profile may view my data, and they might also extract that information with API - however, they do not have any right to give permission on my behalf to someone else (e.g. Cambridge Analytica), that would require a power of attorney or something like that.

My friend might technically send that information to Cambridge Analytica, but my friend can't give them permission to use it, CA would be required to acknowledge that they don't have the legal permission to use that data and discard it. My friend can tell Facebook "I permit you to give that information to Cambridge Analytica" but Facebook is not allowed to act based on that "permission" since it's not something my friend can permit.

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#43

Post by stickfigure »

ginko wrote: post #12
Nextgrid wrote: post #3

I'm no Facebook fan but the reasons behind the lawsuit are bad and could set a bad precedent. Cambridge Analytica used the Facebook API to ask users to share data about them & their friends. Stupid users agreed to that. The argument here isn't that Facebook is playing fast and loose with tracking & user data (which would be a legitimate argument), it's that Facebook is allowing people to grant access to their data to…

>The argument here isn't that Facebook is playing fast and loose with tracking & user data (which would be a legitimate argument), it's that Facebook is allowing people to grant access to their data to third-parties and Facebook should somehow be faulted for that. Even so you wrote yourself that users shared data about their friends. Why does Facebook allow people to share the data of others who didn't agree to this?

> Why does Facebook allow people to share the data of others who didn't agree to this?

I have names, email addresses, phone numbers, birthdates, email contents, and more for most of my friends. There's no centralized arbiter of this information; I have the ability to share this data in any way I choose.

And I do! I switch email providers, install apps on my phone, use calendaring systems, tell our friends where to meet for surprise birthday parties, etc. I don't need your consent for any of it, because even though the information may be about you, we understand that it's "my" data.

Inserting Facebook in this process doesn't really change the dynamic.

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#44

Post by squeaky-clean »

lupire wrote: post #19
inetknght wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cambridge Analytica used the Facebook API to ask users to share data about them & their friends. Stupid users agreed to that. Not reading a 1000 page EULA doesn't make users stupid. It makes Facebook predatory.

There's no 1000 page EULA to read, and FB wasn't the predator. CA asked for data and user said yes, same as if you accept a friend request with someone who gossips about you behind your back.

> CA asked for data and user said yes

I think a lot of people are forgetting that you were also able to get tons of data on a user's friends, just from that user accepting. No consent on the friends part. If you and I were FB friends and I accepted one of those requests, CA now also knows your profile info and likes.

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#45

Post by at-fates-hands »

bzb6 wrote: post #14
inetknght wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cambridge Analytica used the Facebook API to ask users to share data about them & their friends. Stupid users agreed to that. Not reading a 1000 page EULA doesn't make users stupid. It makes Facebook predatory.

There’s no thousand page EULA. Just a screen that says “do you want to allow this app to access your profile data and your friend list” and they clicked yes.

Should Cambridge Analytica then be held accountable for being dubious in what users were giving access to and what they would do with that data?

Do you think if they knew the full scope of Cambridge Analytica's work they would've allowed them to access the data?

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#46

Post by soulofmischief »

Nextgrid wrote: post #3

I'm no Facebook fan but the reasons behind the lawsuit are bad and could set a bad precedent. Cambridge Analytica used the Facebook API to ask users to share data about them & their friends. Stupid users agreed to that. The argument here isn't that Facebook is playing fast and loose with tracking & user data (which would be a legitimate argument), it's that Facebook is allowing people to grant access to their data to…

No, I am not stupid, and I did not agree for my friends to sell out my personal data to the lowest bidder. This comment is not in good faith.

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#47

Post by dschuetz »

Nextgrid wrote: post #3

I'm no Facebook fan but the reasons behind the lawsuit are bad and could set a bad precedent. Cambridge Analytica used the Facebook API to ask users to share data about them & their friends. Stupid users agreed to that. The argument here isn't that Facebook is playing fast and loose with tracking & user data (which would be a legitimate argument), it's that Facebook is allowing people to grant access to their data to…

As Mr. Zuckerberg stated personally, the main product of Facebook are ads. That means, everything around ads and user tracking is their core business. Not whatever users do, but whatever users see and click when an ad is up. Making privacy settings more restrictive or convenient goes directly against Facebook's business model, as does transparency about data brokerage and third parties. Saying that basically the users are to blame, because they are sharing their data completely misses the motivation behind Facebook's pretense, that it's all about users, social media and making the world better. In reality it is about collecting and selling as much data and as much ads as possible, all while blatantly violating their users privacy.

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#48

Post by ginko »

stickfigure wrote: post #43
ginko wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The argument here isn't that Facebook is playing fast and loose with tracking & user data (which would be a legitimate argument), it's that Facebook is allowing people to grant access to their data to third-parties and Facebook should somehow be faulted for that. Even so you wrote yourself that users shared data about their friends. Why does Facebook allow people to share the data of others who didn't agree to this?

> Why does Facebook allow people to share the data of others who didn't agree to this? I have names, email addresses, phone numbers, birthdates, email contents, and more for most of my friends. There's no centralized arbiter of this information; I have the ability to share this data in any way I choose. And I do! I switch email providers, install apps on my phone, use calendaring systems, tell our friends where to me…

> I have the ability to share this data in any way I choose.

Freely sharing your friends' data without their permission may be a GDPR violation.

> because even though the information may be about you, we understand that it's "my" data.

That's just not true. Why would you think that?!

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#49

Post by BlackFly »

hunter-gatherer wrote: post #31
manux wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Facebook is allowing people to grant access to their data to third-parties and Facebook should somehow be faulted for that. It's not clear to me that they shouldn't be faulted. How many people read terms and conditions? How many people lack the technological literacy to understand what it means to share their facebook data with third-parties? It seems to me like we should make our systems robust to the average user…

> It's not clear to me that they shouldn't be faulted. How many people read terms and conditions? How many people lack the technological literacy to understand what it means to share their facebook data with third-parties? I'm not trying to argue here, but I see this argument pop up often when discussing big tech and user data. I'm curious why the tone is so different when it comes to mortgages or auto loans, for exa…

Well for one, I expect the bank not to have snuck in a clause that allows them to unilaterally change the contract without providing me with a physical copy thereof. I expect that if the bank tried that that the courts would rule it unconscionable. I expect that if I modify terms in the contract such as typos that the representative will ok them and accept the modification. I expect that they will keep a physical copy of the license or a digital scan thereof so they can track which version I received and whether such modifications were made and to keep track of the witness. I expect the bank to insist on having a translator present since I reside in a land where my proficiency in the language is suspect. I expect that there is a meaningful exchange embodied by the contract and that there is some sense in which I can seek redress if the bank fails to provide the agreed upon funds.

If you are sincere, you should compare more people trying to make payday loans illegal with the fight against Facebook's EULA. Banks have always showed much more diligence to receive meaningful consent for a mortgage than Facebook even comes close to. With Payday loans, a predatory lender is trying to rope someone into a contract and then wants to use the courts to extract much more money out of individuals knowing that the individual may be so far in debt that they have no more disposable income. There are many people who would argue that such things should be illegal (or already are) in the same grain as loansharking. Once upon a time people signed contracts whereupon they became slaves or indentured. Clearly not all contractual terms should be honored by a just society. Facebook is seen by some as closer to the predatory lender than a typical mortgage provider. People are free to disagree with where to place the line, but clearly society places the line somewhere on the acceptability of contractual terms.

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#50

Post by msla »

ginko wrote: post #48
stickfigure wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does Facebook allow people to share the data of others who didn't agree to this? I have names, email addresses, phone numbers, birthdates, email contents, and more for most of my friends. There's no centralized arbiter of this information; I have the ability to share this data in any way I choose. And I do! I switch email providers, install apps on my phone, use calendaring systems, tell our friends where to me…

> I have the ability to share this data in any way I choose. Freely sharing your friends' data without their permission may be a GDPR violation. > because even though the information may be about you, we understand that it's "my" data. That's just not true. Why would you think that?!

> Freely sharing your friends' data without their permission may be a GDPR violation.

People subject to EU law should keep that in mind, then.

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