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Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

bbc.com

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Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#31

Post by hunter-gatherer »

manux wrote: post #9
Nextgrid wrote: post #3

I'm no Facebook fan but the reasons behind the lawsuit are bad and could set a bad precedent. Cambridge Analytica used the Facebook API to ask users to share data about them & their friends. Stupid users agreed to that. The argument here isn't that Facebook is playing fast and loose with tracking & user data (which would be a legitimate argument), it's that Facebook is allowing people to grant access to their data to…

> Facebook is allowing people to grant access to their data to third-parties and Facebook should somehow be faulted for that. It's not clear to me that they shouldn't be faulted. How many people read terms and conditions? How many people lack the technological literacy to understand what it means to share their facebook data with third-parties? It seems to me like we should make our systems robust to the average user…

> It's not clear to me that they shouldn't be faulted. How many people read terms and conditions? How many people lack the technological literacy to understand what it means to share their facebook data with third-parties?

I'm not trying to argue here, but I see this argument pop up often when discussing big tech and user data. I'm curious why the tone is so different when it comes to mortgages or auto loans, for example. It seems society is content with the notion that I must do my ow due diligence when buying a home, but for whatever reason that responsibility seems to slide away when I'm dealing with social media. Why is that?

To clarify, I'm being sincere, not argumentative. I'm not a normal internet user and never have been. I haven't been on social media for a decade, use all the ad blockers, and so on.

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#32

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

lupire wrote: post #19
inetknght wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cambridge Analytica used the Facebook API to ask users to share data about them & their friends. Stupid users agreed to that. Not reading a 1000 page EULA doesn't make users stupid. It makes Facebook predatory.

There's no 1000 page EULA to read, and FB wasn't the predator. CA asked for data and user said yes, same as if you accept a friend request with someone who gossips about you behind your back.

This is ludicrous. So somebody friends me on Facebook, someone who I know and trust. Then that person comes along some quiz, and then in teeny text at the bottom of what looks like a standard "blah blah blah" popup is the information, carefully worded as to not be too alarmist, that that person's friends' data (i.e. me) will also be sucked up.

At that point, why just stop at friends? Why not go to any transitive relationship with the argument "well, you trusted that person, so it's just like them sharing the data you already gave to them". Of course, the absurdity of that is that one person can share the whole world. I do not think this is a slippery slope argument at all, given that FB already went halfway down the slope before there was outrage.

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#33

Post by delecti »

ceejayoz wrote: post #13
bzb6 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your friend has view access to your profile, why shouldn’t he be able to extract that information via an API as well?

For the same reason visiting my house doesn't mean they can steal the silverware?

More like: just because someone can visit my house doesn't mean I'd be okay with them walking around video recording everything in sight.

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#34

Post by londons_explore »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #30
ginko wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The argument here isn't that Facebook is playing fast and loose with tracking & user data (which would be a legitimate argument), it's that Facebook is allowing people to grant access to their data to third-parties and Facebook should somehow be faulted for that. Even so you wrote yourself that users shared data about their friends. Why does Facebook allow people to share the data of others who didn't agree to this?

Because open Internet principles as understood at the time required that. Facebook used to be heavily criticized (see e.g https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/2007/08/open-soci... ) for locking data into their platform when it ought to be available on the open web. There was a pervasive sense that you should be able to authorize third parties to do anything you can do through the official webapp; the term “wall…

Indeed - we should remember that a good chunk of the complaints about Facebook are because they opened up an API to anyone who granted permission, as demanded by power users like us who wanted different services to interoperate seemlessly.

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#35

Post by flixic »

I can imagine a lawsuit from the opposite side of the argument: it is these APIs that allow to challenge incumbent social networks, and if the result of the lawsuit rules these APIs out, growing a competitor to Facebook or Twitter might be a lot harder.

Recently I've felt the benefit of this, when sharing my Twitter following with Clubhouse. Clubhouse can grow and challenge other networks because these APIs exist. (We can argue about the degree to which sharing your data should be allowed, but setting an overly restrictive precedent is a real possibility)

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#36

Post by [deleted] »

indigochill wrote: post #21
ginko wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The argument here isn't that Facebook is playing fast and loose with tracking & user data (which would be a legitimate argument), it's that Facebook is allowing people to grant access to their data to third-parties and Facebook should somehow be faulted for that. Even so you wrote yourself that users shared data about their friends. Why does Facebook allow people to share the data of others who didn't agree to this?

If I put on my blinders against this being Facebook for a moment, supposing that you're on a social network in which your friend is someone you personally trust, then it's not that ridiculous to trust that person with the decision to share your data. In a very limited way, you kind of expect this (your friend giving your number to someone who they think you'll get along with, or whatever). This goes a bit sideways on…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#37

Post by neya »

Nextgrid wrote: post #3

I'm no Facebook fan but the reasons behind the lawsuit are bad and could set a bad precedent. Cambridge Analytica used the Facebook API to ask users to share data about them & their friends. Stupid users agreed to that. The argument here isn't that Facebook is playing fast and loose with tracking & user data (which would be a legitimate argument), it's that Facebook is allowing people to grant access to their data to…

Here's a counter argument - API access is just one aspect of Facebook selling user data, as far as I know, Facebook will license its data via customized methods (eg. a custom API) if you pay a fee for its access. There are even vendors who provide data from Facebook that isn't available via what you see as public on their documentation. Governments around the world use this to get user data access from Facebook. To me, that is the real definition of selling user data. I think Facebook should be held responsible for that and also in general for being a sneaky leech of user data.

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#38

Post by PeterisP »

indigochill wrote: post #21
ginko wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The argument here isn't that Facebook is playing fast and loose with tracking & user data (which would be a legitimate argument), it's that Facebook is allowing people to grant access to their data to third-parties and Facebook should somehow be faulted for that. Even so you wrote yourself that users shared data about their friends. Why does Facebook allow people to share the data of others who didn't agree to this?

If I put on my blinders against this being Facebook for a moment, supposing that you're on a social network in which your friend is someone you personally trust, then it's not that ridiculous to trust that person with the decision to share your data. In a very limited way, you kind of expect this (your friend giving your number to someone who they think you'll get along with, or whatever). This goes a bit sideways on…

The thing here is that "you're on a social network in which your friend is someone you personally trust, then it's not that ridiculous to trust that person with the decision to share your data" does not match the legal expectation. If my friend allows Facebook to give my data to Cambridge Analytica, that does not give Facebook any legal grounds to do that - so as Facebook did it, it would be a violation at least of the current laws (the UK pre-GDPR legislation was more limited). You are required to inform the data subject and, if you use consent as the basis, you're required to get consent from the data subject (or their legal guardian), not some other person, even if that person is their friend or family member. My spouse or parent can't consent to sharing data on my behalf, and any terms and conditions to which they agree can't waive my rights.

Also, it's worth noting that there is a big difference between "your friend giving your number to someone who they think you'll get along with" and your friend sharing your name and number to some company - for GDPR, the first is covered by the "personal activity" clause 2.2(d), and the latter is not, so GDPR applies and the consent of that friend isn't sufficient, i.e. the friend is permitted to click "share", however, that does not necessarily mean that the company is permitted to use the data shared in this manner. So every company that expects EU users to share their phone contact lists had better be very careful on what and how they do it - you can't rely on informing users or getting consent as you're informing someone else and getting someone else's consent.

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#39

Post by londons_explore »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #32
lupire wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no 1000 page EULA to read, and FB wasn't the predator. CA asked for data and user said yes, same as if you accept a friend request with someone who gossips about you behind your back.

This is ludicrous. So somebody friends me on Facebook, someone who I know and trust. Then that person comes along some quiz, and then in teeny text at the bottom of what looks like a standard "blah blah blah" popup is the information, carefully worded as to not be too alarmist, that that person's friends' data (i.e. me) will also be sucked up. At that point, why just stop at friends? Why not go to any transitive rela…

The same argument could be said today about your web browser.

I wrote this comment for people in this conversation to see. Yet you allowed Google Chrome access to the comment. You let your adblocker see it. You let lots of software companies scrape it. You shared the data with a wider audience than I intended.

Sure, the argument doesn't hold much water on the public internet. But now consider HN was an invite-only forum, in fact an invite-only forum just like my facebook page...

Re: Facebook sued for ‘losing control’ of users’ data

#40

Post by manux »

hunter-gatherer wrote: post #31
manux wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Facebook is allowing people to grant access to their data to third-parties and Facebook should somehow be faulted for that. It's not clear to me that they shouldn't be faulted. How many people read terms and conditions? How many people lack the technological literacy to understand what it means to share their facebook data with third-parties? It seems to me like we should make our systems robust to the average user…

> It's not clear to me that they shouldn't be faulted. How many people read terms and conditions? How many people lack the technological literacy to understand what it means to share their facebook data with third-parties? I'm not trying to argue here, but I see this argument pop up often when discussing big tech and user data. I'm curious why the tone is so different when it comes to mortgages or auto loans, for exa…

[Not an expert on this, just my opinion as well]

Well, for one afaik mortgages and auto loans are regulated and have been for a long time. They're also simpler to understand for _most_ people, since most people interact with money daily, they see their income, they understand interest, etc.

Most people don't need to understand how banks trade mortgages and such because in all likelihood, well except in 2008, it will only affect them marginally.

I suspect that most people similarly only have a very superficial functional understanding of data. They see other people's data daily, they understand that if they post something, other people will see it.

Where this differs is that, at scale data is not well regulated, and can affect users much more directly and non-marginally, in non-obvious ways. Targeted ads, political manipulation, identity theft, etc.

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