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The computers rejecting job applications

bbc.co.uk

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Re: The computers rejecting job applications

#241

Post by gifnamething »

stuaxo wrote: post #174
myself248 wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would title it "Growth opportunities I look forward to exploring", and then yes, absolutely.

This must be an American thing, if someone wrote that on a CV in the UK, this sort of text would probably put people off.

I find job application advice and takes very polarising. Some people are adamant about including other interests in a CV/resume while others consider it a waste of space that implies something negative about the candidate. There are also huge variances in what a CV/resume should contain and be called, such as how many pages it should have[1] or if there should be a picture, that people will die on a hill for.

This is normal! If the hiring managers will reject CVs that have hobbies and you find them valuable information, what you're experiencing is a culture mismatch. That's effective filtering, before you're saddled with a new job contract. Viewing a job application like school, where you're guaranteed a certain result if you have the right talent and work ethic, is the wrong model and will lead to disappointment. It's fundamentally a relationship, so should be viewed like dating.

If I one day become one of HN's fabled star engineers that can have any job they want, I'd like to write a CV in a markdown text file. That's how I really disseminate information in my working life, not Latex.

[1] Having the proper number of pages is an important signal that you are also proper and well educated, i.e. the correct social class.

Re: The computers rejecting job applications

#242

Post by gifnamething »

SharpeDidntFoul wrote: post #158
dcolkitt wrote: post #36

The next logical step would be to train an adversarial AI against the hiring AI. You'd have the system generate your resume and application to maximize your chances. Then the hiring AI would need to be re-trained to account for this. And so on. In the far future, this feedback loop creates an economy where every job application is total gibberish. No human can possibly explain why their resume is a recipe for carne a…

I kind of rambled on about this in another comment on this thread, but I paid someone $250 to optimize my resume with key words to appease AI. It worked. I got automated replies to schedule phone screenings from jobs that had rejected my old resume. It's already happening.

Business plan: Undercut Pymetrics by offering a free service. Dominate the market. Then, monetise it by selling optimisation to the applicants.

Re: The computers rejecting job applications

#243

Post by 35fbe7d3d5b9 »

Frazmatazz wrote: post #228
35fbe7d3d5b9 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who gets to participate in the hiring process more than I'd like to, I look for balance on resumes. If you bring nothing but J2EE 1.4 experience I'm going to assume you've carved out a focused niche. I'll steer the interview towards broad, modern practices and technologies. If your resume talks about nothing but modern technologies, I'll try to dive deep to be sure you aren't a dilettante with surface know…

Do you have hard data demonstrating that your method actually has greater predictive power for job performance than other methods?

Absolutely not. It's one more approach riddled with bias, human foibles and questionable correlation to results - just like all hiring.

All I can say: in my experience, the engineers I've hired with deep (but potentially old) experience and with balanced resumes have been better performers and more likely to stick around than those who bounce around tech to tech.

Re: The computers rejecting job applications

#245

Post by gifnamething »

sgerenser wrote: post #33
Bukhmanizer wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frankly, the logistics of hiring make this a reality. I remember helping my boss hire interns, and picked a few out. Later on, they found out that they weren’t able to go to all of the schools that they wanted, they could only choose 2. Where did all the people from other schools go? Straight in the trash. Same deal with hiring full-time employees in my experience. Random, usually understandable circumstances preclud…

The current large tech company I work for had a recruiter posting messages on LinkedIn like “we’re hiring like crazy in for people with !” I had already applied on their careers site and got no response. Messaged this recruiter and got no response. Applied again to a similar position maybe 2 months later, got a response, got an interview, and now I’m working there. Guess my point is there’s clearly a lot of randomnes…

I applied to my current employer 3 times in total. Better candidates would already be working for other companies after the first time.

Re: The computers rejecting job applications

#246

Post by gifnamething »

JustARandomGuy wrote: post #90

Related story: I applied for a position with United Airlines a few months ago. I started the job application, then stopped in the middle for whatever reason. United’s job system emailed me at 9 PM a reminder to continue my application, and I completed it less than a half hour later. A half hour after that (just after 10 PM) United emailed me a rejection notice. So either some United recruiter was working late (I’m in…

And now you're presumably much less likely to try applying again, regardless of how well you fit future openings. They burnt the bridge. The equivalent for you would be turning down a job offer with 4-letter words. In many areas there aren't enough skilled candidates for this to be sustainable.

Re: The computers rejecting job applications

#247

Post by blaser-waffle »

gifnamething wrote: post #241
stuaxo wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This must be an American thing, if someone wrote that on a CV in the UK, this sort of text would probably put people off.

I find job application advice and takes very polarising. Some people are adamant about including other interests in a CV/resume while others consider it a waste of space that implies something negative about the candidate. There are also huge variances in what a CV/resume should contain and be called, such as how many pages it should have[1] or if there should be a picture, that people will die on a hill for. This is…

The picture thing is a no-no in the US, due to discrimination fears, but is reasonably common in Europe.

Re: The computers rejecting job applications

#248

Post by blaser-waffle »

beckingz wrote: post #125
airhead969 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeap. There then ought to be a whole cottage industry of gaming AI applications and AI hiring. So, we're basically voluntarily letting the machines take over and replace human jobs, nuance, and critical thinking? Oh and then the next logical progressions are AI performance reviews and AI management. Within a decade, your AI boss will slinging around a coffee cup and saying "yeah, I'm gonna need you to come in on Sund…

There are numerous resume consultants who specialize in getting past HR screens and keyword filters.

Who? Where?

Asking for a friend...

Re: The computers rejecting job applications

#249

Post by lostoldaccount2 »

RachelF wrote: post #199
KineticLensman wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See 'the secretary problem' [0], which is a more sophisticated version of the above. It's a process that can be summarised roughly as follows. Given a pile of CVs Read approximately 40% of them (actually 1/e, or ~0.368) Dump that 40% Select the first candidate that is better than the ones you have just dumped [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_problem

Many hiring managers read your CV for the first time during the interview.

This is a reason why you

1. Should always insist on a first phone interview

2. Ask the hiring manager why he believes that you are a good match for the position.

Re: The computers rejecting job applications

#250

Post by 908B64B197 »

microtherion wrote: post #187

Yes, those AI systems surely create garbage results right now, and worse, once they are trained perfectly, they will provide perfect cover to codify existing hiring biases: 1. Take existing employee base, hired through biased process. 2. Use resumes to train multi-million parameter machine learning model. 3. System will replicate biases, while the process is completely opaque to review by even the people who created…

This has to be a prank somehow.

The list of North American universities makes no sense. Some co-op technical college I never heard of listed along Stanford/MIT.

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