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CD Projekt Red has been subject to a cyber attack and ransom demand

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Re: CD Projekt Red has been subject to a cyber attack and ransom demand

#111

Post by villasv »

ArkanExplorer wrote: post #107
Netcob wrote: post #52

Reading the replies there tells me I did the right thing when I decided against a career in game development over a decade ago. It looks like a constant war between developers and gamers now. Developers are investing a lot of time into making their games literally addictive in the worst way possible, and not even remotely by making it fun - it's all about overpriced DLC, gambling and weird reward systems. Which has r…

These are just symptoms - the fundamental underlying factor is the 30% commission taken by Valve, Microsoft, Sony, Apple, Google. Take these values down to 10-15%, and the game development business becomes a lot higher-margin, encouraging new entrants and supporting better salaries and conditions for staff. The other problem is that games are unique that they are entirely B2C, retail products. As a result, the full t…

And the evidence for that diagnostics is...? Got any reference that links margin to company culture?

The few people I know from the mobile gaming industry tell me the margins are insanely high. They’d spend x on ads and get back 2~5x in microtransactions. Also development costs were even lower than marketing costs.

Re: CD Projekt Red has been subject to a cyber attack and ransom demand

#112

Post by 2pEXgD0fZ5cF »

reader_mode wrote: post #85
pca006132 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that the trend in tech/games/media is about stimulating the reward system, requiring less attention span, and monetize from it. Social media recommendation systems, mobile games, competitive games that finish in half an hour, etc. Alternative exists, but probably won't make that much money...

> requiring less attention span How ? Competitive gaming requires intense uninterrupted focus for 30 min to 1 h periods (which is what got me out of it).

> Competitive gaming requires intense uninterrupted focus for 30 min to 1 h periods

This is technically true, but in most team based multiplayer games you actually get much shorter focus intervals due to breaks and pauses like dying (time to respawn or end of round, which can take up to multiple minutes) or running to the action from spawn (games like Overwatch).

Also the team aspect hides much of it so a lot of players go "on autopilot" too in these games, you have to keep in mind that the far majority of players in the super popular games plays at a lower level.

Compared to this a game like Starcraft 2 (1on1 competitive) actually requires uninterrupted focus for a full game with basically no breaks or pauses, but 1v1 competitive multiplayer games are not as popular as team based games.

Re: CD Projekt Red has been subject to a cyber attack and ransom demand

#113

Post by TeMPOraL »

_Understated_ wrote: post #72
johnnycerberus wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most addictive games are not the ones we think about. My friends are into "competitive" gaming, games like CSGO, Dota2. These developers barely bring any content to their games and it amazes me how much profit they make for less work compared to AAA studios releasing blockbusters like RDR2. If your game is not competitive, microtransaction-ready, not a sandbox with procedural, generative stuff, the chances are th…

This made me wonder: Is there a parallel between the advertising industry and their ever increasing quest to mine more data and the games industry with their incessant need for DLC, microtransactions and whatnot? It seems that middle-management/VC's in both of these industries are pushing the same processes (or could we use "dogma"?) without any empirical evidence that what they are doing is the right thing, all the…

> Is there a parallel between the advertising industry and their ever increasing quest to mine more data and the games industry with their incessant need for DLC, microtransactions and whatnot?

There is: being "data driven", which is a short for "we need to tighten the feedback loop in our revenue optimization algorithm". The most annoying players in both industries are essentially trying to run a PID controller around the people they're monetizing. For that to work, interactions must be frequent, telemetry must be extensive.

Re: CD Projekt Red has been subject to a cyber attack and ransom demand

#114

Post by villasv »

izacus wrote: post #70
Netcob wrote: post #52

Reading the replies there tells me I did the right thing when I decided against a career in game development over a decade ago. It looks like a constant war between developers and gamers now. Developers are investing a lot of time into making their games literally addictive in the worst way possible, and not even remotely by making it fun - it's all about overpriced DLC, gambling and weird reward systems. Which has r…

This seems like such a needlessly negative take in vein of the "our music was better and now everything is comercialized!!!" syndrome. We live in pretty much the golden age of gaming - the audience has never been bigger, the choice was never greater and there is no lack of evocative, emotional and masterfully crafted games. But just like with every other medium, there's also no lack of cheap cash grabs. You movie cin…

Game quality was not the point though, games are great. OP is talking about quality of life as a developer.

Re: CD Projekt Red has been subject to a cyber attack and ransom demand

#115

Post by me_me_me »

meibo wrote: post #99
me_me_me wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same with Hades by Supergiant Games. Its an amazing game and the company is proudly kicking people out if they try to stay after hours. It is possible but you can also squeeze the life out of your replaceable staff and hold them guilt hostage (if you don't work as hard as everyone else then you are making them work harder). If the project has crunch time for the most development time then its not a crunch its the nor…

Disclaimer: Supergiant also sold out to Epic Games, one of the game industry harbingers of doom and workplace abuse(together with Activision-Blizzard). Might not want to give those any money.

I waited and got it on steam.

You can't blame them for taking time exclusive money, they are a business afterall. And its not like they support their practices.

Re: CD Projekt Red has been subject to a cyber attack and ransom demand

#116

Post by Netcob »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #109
tomash wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Factorio is awesome. It's kind of funny-ironic that a counter-example to "making games as addictive as possible" is an indie game addictive enough to be called "cracktorio" by its fans.

It's a different kind of addiction. Factorio is the ultimate nerd-snipe[0] for a large class of people who enjoy flexing their brains. The addictiveness is a side effect the developers maximizing having fun (for the aforementioned subset of the population). When people talk about "making games as addictive as possible" in the general and pejorative sense, they usually mean something else: they mean that the optimizat…

Yes, exactly.

I just played a mobile game, and as usual it has a hundred different in-game currencies that you can buy with real money. Every time I finish a level there's an endless parade of meaningless "rewards", and I see some coins going into a piggybank. When it was full, I clicked it, and the game congratulated me for now being eligible to buy the contents.

The game is a clone of puzzle bobble. Like you said, none of that is making puzzle bobble a "better game". It's saying "Wow, you won/earned something! It's almost yours now, you just have to pay this tiny fee to actually have it...". I don't feel like I'm on the same side as the developer, and this is worlds apart from how Factorio treats players.

Since "addictive" still has positive connotations in gaming, I'll just call it "manipulative" from now on.

Re: CD Projekt Red has been subject to a cyber attack and ransom demand

#117

Post by ArkanExplorer »

villasv wrote: post #111
ArkanExplorer wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are just symptoms - the fundamental underlying factor is the 30% commission taken by Valve, Microsoft, Sony, Apple, Google. Take these values down to 10-15%, and the game development business becomes a lot higher-margin, encouraging new entrants and supporting better salaries and conditions for staff. The other problem is that games are unique that they are entirely B2C, retail products. As a result, the full t…

And the evidence for that diagnostics is...? Got any reference that links margin to company culture? The few people I know from the mobile gaming industry tell me the margins are insanely high. They’d spend x on ads and get back 2~5x in microtransactions. Also development costs were even lower than marketing costs.

This is the conclusion of the American Federal Trade Commission...

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2021-01-08-ftc-wary-o...

""heavy taxation" by Apple and Google means developers are forced to use monetisation models that "rely on surveillance, manipulation and other harmful practices.""

Re: CD Projekt Red has been subject to a cyber attack and ransom demand

#118

Post by ArkanExplorer »

Netcob wrote: post #110
ArkanExplorer wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are just symptoms - the fundamental underlying factor is the 30% commission taken by Valve, Microsoft, Sony, Apple, Google. Take these values down to 10-15%, and the game development business becomes a lot higher-margin, encouraging new entrants and supporting better salaries and conditions for staff. The other problem is that games are unique that they are entirely B2C, retail products. As a result, the full t…

With the exception of small indie developers, I'm too cynical to believe that the difference would end up benefiting the staff.

On Steam, larger developers are charged a 20% commission, whereas Indie developers are charged a 30% commission.

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-12-03-indie-deve...

You are put at a fundamentally poorer economic position if you quit your AAA job and make Indie games and release them on Steam.

Re: CD Projekt Red has been subject to a cyber attack and ransom demand

#119

Post by shultays »

ArkanExplorer wrote: post #117
villasv wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the evidence for that diagnostics is...? Got any reference that links margin to company culture? The few people I know from the mobile gaming industry tell me the margins are insanely high. They’d spend x on ads and get back 2~5x in microtransactions. Also development costs were even lower than marketing costs.

This is the conclusion of the American Federal Trade Commission... https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2021-01-08-ftc-wary-o... ""heavy taxation" by Apple and Google means developers are forced to use monetisation models that "rely on surveillance, manipulation and other harmful practices.""

Seems a stretch, publishing was costly pre steam as well and there were always a cut

Re: CD Projekt Red has been subject to a cyber attack and ransom demand

#120

Post by Tom4hawk »

_Understated_ wrote: post #72
johnnycerberus wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most addictive games are not the ones we think about. My friends are into "competitive" gaming, games like CSGO, Dota2. These developers barely bring any content to their games and it amazes me how much profit they make for less work compared to AAA studios releasing blockbusters like RDR2. If your game is not competitive, microtransaction-ready, not a sandbox with procedural, generative stuff, the chances are th…

This made me wonder: Is there a parallel between the advertising industry and their ever increasing quest to mine more data and the games industry with their incessant need for DLC, microtransactions and whatnot? It seems that middle-management/VC's in both of these industries are pushing the same processes (or could we use "dogma"?) without any empirical evidence that what they are doing is the right thing, all the…

Unfortunately we know the answer and we have data to back it up. EA earned 2x more on FUT and Apex Legends than on normal "full games": https://s22.q4cdn.com/894350492/files/doc_financials/2021/q3...
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