Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

stackoverflow.blog

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

281–290 of 309 posts

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#281

Post by qwantim1 »

jackpirate wrote: post #270
ignoramous wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, and Amazon HR might be forced to create newer, higher rungs just for alv (and quite possibly a few others like James Hamilton and Eric Brandwine). The "self-demotion" is real though, especially since, according to the (much disputed) book, The Everything Store, alv declined Bezos' offer to lead AWS, and the job then of course was Andy Jassy's (who took over from Colin Bryar) which laid the foundation for him to…

Amazon is great, but it's hardly "one of the most enduring companies of all time" yet. It's not even 30 years old.

It’s a prediction based on its continued meteoric rise and given its net worth.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#282

Post by axetheone »

throwaway667555 wrote: post #73
skeeter2020 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always believed and practiced this too. You get the promotion & bump because you're already essentially doing the job. I'm OK with a trial without the promotion, but many (most?) seem to think you should get the opportunity to succeed or fail, with the rewards up front. I do't get this viewpoint.

This is mild exploitation widespread in employment, and I think you're identifying with the exploiter. It's not the rewards up front, it's the rewards as-you-go. Or it's the rewards at the end of the previous rank. Always having your pay 1yr behind your responsibilities is wrong. You're doing the job, you get the pay. On day 1 of being a lead, you've never been a lead before, but you are now. Year 1 leads get lead pa…

I'm so glad I've found this comment. It's REALLY strange to me that this is the first time I've read someone talking about this phenomena and on how exploitative it actually is and, like other comment noted, this is a very convenient co-opting of the Peter principle in order to get more senior people for cheap in the guise of "trials" and similar.

When exactly did this extortionary tactic started? There are so many things that go unquestioned...

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#283

Post by rewgs »

geophile wrote: post #24

Good for you. I was in startups for 25 years, (except for a few years in an acquiring company), and I had this ongoing debate with myself and my bosses for many years: Should I stay on the technical side (developer, architect), or go into management? On one hand, I thought that I "should" go into management because ... that's what people do, right? On the other hand, I loathed management. Even as a team lead, meeting…

I'm looking at a career change (possibly to tech), and I can't help but wonder: is there a way to be one of these managers, but without being a coder first?

Weird question, I know. But I'm an advanced beginner of a programmer who knows that I'd make a better manager than a SWE. Almost would prefer to just leap-frog to management since, as it is, I'm already looking at a career change and know my strengths.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#284

Post by LilBytes »

tcgv wrote: post #254
ignoramous wrote: post #89

Reminds me of a "self-demotion" that worked out well: That of a certain Allan Vermeulen [0] who, by some accounts, was the chief architect of Amazon S3 [1], and by all accounts, an engineer extraordinaire. Vermeulen managed the Platform Services group when he joined [2], and later moved to a CTO role with focus on the then very nascent Web Services initiative [3], but eventually "demoted" himself to an "AWS Engineer"…

Defines himself as a "techinical dude" in his LinkedIn profile xD - https://www.linkedin.com/in/allan-vermeulen-58835b/

"Roguewave Software"

- Position: guy

The chief of modesty.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#285

Post by JackMorgan »

I just stepped down from director of development at a large banking company to be a senior engineer somewhere else, and I'm loving it. I'm truly an engineer at heart, playing politics is just not enough for me to feel fulfilled. I'm delighted to have no direct reports and be free to spend my time outside work focusing on sharpening my technical saw.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#286

Post by tharkun__ »

axetheone wrote: post #282
throwaway667555 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is mild exploitation widespread in employment, and I think you're identifying with the exploiter. It's not the rewards up front, it's the rewards as-you-go. Or it's the rewards at the end of the previous rank. Always having your pay 1yr behind your responsibilities is wrong. You're doing the job, you get the pay. On day 1 of being a lead, you've never been a lead before, but you are now. Year 1 leads get lead pa…

I'm so glad I've found this comment. It's REALLY strange to me that this is the first time I've read someone talking about this phenomena and on how exploitative it actually is and, like other comment noted, this is a very convenient co-opting of the Peter principle in order to get more senior people for cheap in the guise of "trials" and similar. When exactly did this extortionary tactic started? There are so many t…

I think it's quite a difference whether your boss already knows (or thinks) you can do the other job and still tries to not pay you the bump and you doing the extra work to get noticed.

In my case it wasn't even to get noticed. I just care about stuff. My current boss is actually trying to make me 'care less'. Like I can't leave it alone if I see the PMs do a crap job and I try to fix it. I can't not say something when I see the DevOps guys not taking care of the dev envs and dev experience.

Also when did this start? Like hundreds of not thousands of years ago. Why?

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#287

Post by josephorjoe »

sethammons wrote: post #137
josephorjoe wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Best career move I ever made was to quit a managerial job and learn coding. Three years later I was making more $$ as an IC with none of the stress and nuisance of management. Five years later I was making 2x my old salary and significantly happier w my day to day work. To each their own...

That's interesting. I'm facing the choice of going to management for a pay cut in the short term but with longer term potential upside.

If you excel at management, you will eventually make more than most ICs, especially in a tech company where they have to pay up to get engineers to convert to a meeting oriented job.

I was a good tactical/operational manager but did not enjoy many aspects of the job (bureaucracy, performance reviews, personnel problems, being 'corporate'), had limited interest in strategic business concerns, and did not have the enthusiasm needed to move up the management ranks.

I'm much better suited to being an individual contributor.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#288

Post by auspex »

ryandrake wrote: post #87
progre wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always fought to stay a developer as well. It seems that as soon as I know a codebase well enough to be really productive, there is a "team lead" or "scrum master" role waiting. Once or twice I've even fallen for it but the result have always been more meetings, less customer interaction, more responsibility and somehow less power over the product. Pay has stayed the same of course.

Then on the other hand, you have unusual guys like me who are trying over and over to get into management, but 20+ years in I'm still at the bottom of the totem pole. It's always the same need-experience-to-get-experience catch-22: "Well, [JOE] already has management experience and you don't so [JOE] is now your manager." It's always a struggle: If you want X and don't want Y, somehow you're always going to be offere…

Have you had the discussion with your manager that you want to get into management as a long term goal? Your manager should help you plan out a track to a management promotion. If your manager is not helping you develop along your intended career path find a new manager. If they do when one becomes available you should be prepared to interview for that role.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#289

Post by throwaway667555 »

dasil003 wrote: post #246
throwaway667555 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is mild exploitation widespread in employment, and I think you're identifying with the exploiter. It's not the rewards up front, it's the rewards as-you-go. Or it's the rewards at the end of the previous rank. Always having your pay 1yr behind your responsibilities is wrong. You're doing the job, you get the pay. On day 1 of being a lead, you've never been a lead before, but you are now. Year 1 leads get lead pa…

This is like a playbook for hollowing out an organization's talent via the Peter Principle.

For this to be true, then it must be true that trial-run promotions very frequently fail, so they keep the person in the role they perform best in. I think that's not the case. I think trial-run promotions lead to promotions about equally as often as no-trial-run promotions.

The same people end up at the same end rank, they just take lower pay for a year to get there. And that one year drag compounds because raises are %.

Anyway we're likely disagreeing in an entirely vague way. Of course my leadership skills should be evident if I'm going to ask to be Lead, so yes day1 leads aren't starting from 0. But a company's surest bet for who to hire as Lead is me, so why should I put up with them telling me they just aren't sure yet? All hires into new roles are very uncertain, and I'm the most certain, so I get the role. Someone more certain than me is a person with 2yrs of Lead on their resume, but they get Lead 3 pay, and I'm not asking for Lead 3 pay. You're hiring a Lead 1 and I'm sure surest bet (inside the org or out) and we all know it.

Or go ahead whisper promises of a promotion in the ears of two on my team and watch them butt heads as they try to act out the phantom authority you've given them. A politicking horserace like that has a vastly worse impact on the company than just pulling the trigger and naming one of us Lead 1 even if we're obvious greenboots for a year.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#290

Post by biotechiscool »

rewgs wrote: post #283
geophile wrote: post #24

Good for you. I was in startups for 25 years, (except for a few years in an acquiring company), and I had this ongoing debate with myself and my bosses for many years: Should I stay on the technical side (developer, architect), or go into management? On one hand, I thought that I "should" go into management because ... that's what people do, right? On the other hand, I loathed management. Even as a team lead, meeting…

I'm looking at a career change (possibly to tech), and I can't help but wonder: is there a way to be one of these managers, but without being a coder first? Weird question, I know. But I'm an advanced beginner of a programmer who knows that I'd make a better manager than a SWE. Almost would prefer to just leap-frog to management since, as it is, I'm already looking at a career change and know my strengths.

Check out QA. Get promoted from QA analyst up to manager and then transfer into other management type roles outside of QA.
Post reply on HN