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I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

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Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You sound like someone who has never been a manager or has no idea what a manager does. Yes, you're right that defects are made by developers. But you'd be hard pressed to find an example of a software defect that destroyed a company. Even if you as a DevOps engineer cause your company to be down for a day, it probably would have little effect on your company's bottom line. I was in charge of Reliability for Netflix.…

I was a Sr Manager for about 4 years, two different "teams", one IT based, one QA based. Regardless, perhaps we need to define the word "Manager", mainly because your example said: > Creating entire new groups of engineers and then hiring them to solve specific problems of moving traffic between regions. Albeit admirable, like heck yeah that was a great outcome, it's not a manager decision. Most likely it was a VP or…

> In the end, when Netflix went down where did the mistake come from? A manager or an architecture decision? Probably it was both.

In that particular case it was an engineer making a mistake, but my point was that it wasn't anywhere close to a fatal mistake.

But more importantly, when a team had repeated technical failures, it was usually the manager who suffered the consequences. Especially if their failures were causing problems with other teams.

The manager had the higher risk job because they were blamed for their team's failures. Therefore they had to be compensated to account for that risk to their job.

It's the same reason CEOs get huge golden parachutes. Because their job is constantly at risk for not only their decisions but the decisions of everyone below them. So they get compensated for that risk.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#262

Good for you. I was in startups for 25 years, (except for a few years in an acquiring company), and I had this ongoing debate with myself and my bosses for many years: Should I stay on the technical side (developer, architect), or go into management? On one hand, I thought that I "should" go into management because ... that's what people do, right? On the other hand, I loathed management. Even as a team lead, meeting…

I have this dilemma at the moment. My company has a management and non-management track. I feel like the company is pushing me up the levels and that all focus across engineering is on getting promoted to the next level. My problem is now that I've got to Staff level I feel like I'm a manager even though my manager insists I'm not. I hardly ever get to code, and my calendar is full of meetings. I spend a lot of time…

Seniority to some degree is about enabling others and having the overview. The big problems are rarely the precise code being written (it /can/ be the case when working on a specific algorithm or something) but large parts are about architecture, code review, ... and understanding the business needs aside from core technical skills. If a senior shares their experience with 5 juniors it is (especially long-term) better spent than them hacking something alone.

But as always: ymmv

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#263

Good for you. I was in startups for 25 years, (except for a few years in an acquiring company), and I had this ongoing debate with myself and my bosses for many years: Should I stay on the technical side (developer, architect), or go into management? On one hand, I thought that I "should" go into management because ... that's what people do, right? On the other hand, I loathed management. Even as a team lead, meeting…

I have this dilemma at the moment. My company has a management and non-management track. I feel like the company is pushing me up the levels and that all focus across engineering is on getting promoted to the next level. My problem is now that I've got to Staff level I feel like I'm a manager even though my manager insists I'm not. I hardly ever get to code, and my calendar is full of meetings. I spend a lot of time…

At the companies that I've seen that have a good IC track, including some of the FAANGs, the staff+ level engineers are measured by impact. There are many ways to have that impact, and that could be by architecture, design and influencing technical strategy, or it could be by churning out tons of code, or it could be by highly specialized domain knowledge. It's fairly normal for staff-level engineers to spend a lot of time in meetings, but there are also staff engineers who spend most of their time coding.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#264

Good for you. I was in startups for 25 years, (except for a few years in an acquiring company), and I had this ongoing debate with myself and my bosses for many years: Should I stay on the technical side (developer, architect), or go into management? On one hand, I thought that I "should" go into management because ... that's what people do, right? On the other hand, I loathed management. Even as a team lead, meeting…

I have this dilemma at the moment. My company has a management and non-management track. I feel like the company is pushing me up the levels and that all focus across engineering is on getting promoted to the next level. My problem is now that I've got to Staff level I feel like I'm a manager even though my manager insists I'm not. I hardly ever get to code, and my calendar is full of meetings. I spend a lot of time…

I really wouldn’t worry about “being viewed as a failure”. I think it’s admirable if you choose your passion over normality. You’ll be better at your work and at life, you’ll be happier and live longer. Job titles are, in my humble opinion, a trap.

So my advice is to set boundaries. If you don’t want to be sitting in meetings, then stand your ground or come to a compromise. If they don’t understand then quit! Find the path for you, life is too short to be unhappy and someone else’s pencil pusher.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#265

Good for you. I was in startups for 25 years, (except for a few years in an acquiring company), and I had this ongoing debate with myself and my bosses for many years: Should I stay on the technical side (developer, architect), or go into management? On one hand, I thought that I "should" go into management because ... that's what people do, right? On the other hand, I loathed management. Even as a team lead, meeting…

I have this dilemma at the moment. My company has a management and non-management track. I feel like the company is pushing me up the levels and that all focus across engineering is on getting promoted to the next level. My problem is now that I've got to Staff level I feel like I'm a manager even though my manager insists I'm not. I hardly ever get to code, and my calendar is full of meetings. I spend a lot of time…

> I enjoy mentoring and explaining things, writing docs, and being involved in design of systems and influencing technical strategy

One of the great dilemmas is that these things are always interwoven with the non-technical aspects of being a manager. There is some aspect in which it is essential - "how long will this work take" depends intimately on the technical complexity, exactly how skilled the available resources are in the necessary areas etc. Other aspects are completely non-essential - "responsibility for staff completing health and safety training lies with line management". I would really like to see a model where these are disentangled.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#266
post #70

Can someone explain to me why titles like Engineer, Architect, and Developer are perceived as having less value than titles like Manager or Director? Managing products requires a completely different skill set from managing people. Both skills are vital to the success of a business and neither are trivially developed or easily replaced. If you ask me, the "demotion" in this article is not going from Director of Desig…

When you make a decision as a manager or a director, the impact of that decision has a multiplicative force. As an individual contributor, the impact of your decisions may be broad, but however broad your individual impact is, your manager's impact on you is [broad * number of directs], so it's always "greater" (note: not better , just greater ). So in that sense, the "value" of a manager/director is "higher". IMO it…

> When you make a decision as a manager or a director, the impact of that decision has a multiplicative force.

The above resonates as an exercise in tautology to me. If the job of a manager is defined as a position in which a person's decisions will have a multiplicative force... well... then of course their decisions will have a multiplicative force! Though I'm not sure the above is even remotely true for the vast majority of management-type positions, save those at the highest-level. And even if it is... then it of course a fact that the value derived from an individual in such a position is therefore not related to the "multiplicative force", rather, the decisions themselves.

I'd wager most managers come from two camps (the first two below):

1. Those that are ex individual contributors who have accumulated enough seniority and experience to best-understand not "what to build", but rather, "how to build it best". And are therefore given the authority, responsibility, and pay-check to do so.

2. And those who are not really managers at all, and whose job would be more accurately named "coordinators". This seems to be the role you are hitting on at end. You know, the guy who asks the engineers "how can I unblock you today?" and whose explicit role is to have the authority to act on the answer. Notably, not synthesizing the answer in the first place.

3. The third camp is of course the ones to which you seem to be alluding in your comment. The high-level, c-suite, "director of strategy"-type roles. And you are exactly right about them. Clearly the person deciding which widget needs to be built is in a position of tremendous responsibility when the value they can add (and remove) is extremely consequential (assuming the resources required to do so are equally consequential). There aren't many roles like this in a company.

It's the second group of "managers", I think, that the OP is confused about. They don't actually make that many decisions, and the ones that they do make are rarely different from the one their most competent reports wouldn't also make. Sure these "managers" sit in meetings and talk about the larger context of the code, the product vision, etc., but only insofar as that its useful to have someone who can distill and relay this information back to the engineers building the product. Because as an engineer it is, of course, nearly impossible to build a truly great product if you don't understand its larger context. It is this group of managers where the tautology is glaring. It is their job to carry-out the work necessary to multiply force. The work isn't all that creative, doesn't require much judgment, and rarely requires much expertise. The value isn't in multiplying force, it's in just showing up...

To clarify, I'm not suggesting managers don't have value, and certainly don't believe there doesn't exist a spectrum between those in the position. Some people multiply force more than others. They know to ask "how can I unblock you today?". They know that Jim doesn't like to be bothered before 11AM. That Susan is more productive if she has a tight feedback loop. Or that Ron isn't as good as Pam at test coverage. They know how to find and exploit people strengths while also minimizing their weaknesses. This is valuable.

Even so I'd wager most of the time a manager's pay is calibrated such that they make more than those whom they manage regardless of the value these people (the people being managed) contribute and without any sort of rigorous appraisal of how much value they bring or how much force they multiply. How could you? The skills illustrated above can't easily be captured in a pay band...

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#267

I studied a bachelor CS / master CS, having worked for 2 years (odd jobs as a dev), and I have to struggle interview after interview by myself. I dream about getting this kind of mentorship from a such an amazing company. Yet, when I apply to Stackoverflow, I don't even get a chance to be interviewed. The mentorship that she received is so super lucky, I hope she realizes that. I'll bet you this: if I (or most CS mas…

Don't get yourself too down about it compared to her. She moved internally, has a lengthy employment history and was backed by her manager, there was no loss to the company here as knowledge of previous projects would stay with them. There is hardly any way to compete against that from the outside.

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#268
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've banned the account. Obviously that was egregious vandalism, if not arson. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26069552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26069593 You have to judge this sort of thing by the entire community response cycle, though. Indignation, provocation, trolling often gets heavily upvoted—but then the rest of the community reacts appropriately and flags it. Usually that will bring it to o…

that's not true. trolling does not get upvoted here. HN users are usually above the mob mentality. You're just defining it as trolling because you disagree with the upvotes. You are enforcing your own personal opinion here.

[deleted]

Re: I followed my dreams to get demoted to software developer

#270
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a Distinguished Engineer is the highest there is for an engineer. He moved away from management and max'd out on the engineering track. https://college.lclark.edu/programs/entrepreneurship/firesid...

Yeah, and Amazon HR might be forced to create newer, higher rungs just for alv (and quite possibly a few others like James Hamilton and Eric Brandwine). The "self-demotion" is real though, especially since, according to the (much disputed) book, The Everything Store, alv declined Bezos' offer to lead AWS, and the job then of course was Andy Jassy's (who took over from Colin Bryar) which laid the foundation for him to…

Amazon is great, but it's hardly "one of the most enduring companies of all time" yet. It's not even 30 years old.
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