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The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

nature.com

171–180 of 495 posts

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incorrect. All that's required for a trait to persist is that it benefits the pool. If the pool benefits from have 1% of members being blind, then so they shall be. We don't have to understand the benefit for it to exist either.

I'm assuming you're right since I don't know much about this subject, but how does that mechanically work? How does a trait, even if it is beneficial to the community, get passed down if the members that have that trait don't have offspring?

It could be recessive, so it only gets expressed if an individual has two copies of the recessive gene.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#172

People latched onto the idea that sexuality is genetically determined because it seemed like the only viable way to defend themselves against rampant religious bigotry and oppression. It was a rope dangling into the well you were trapped in, and the well was filling with acid, but if you could just manage to climb that rope then you'd make it out. The reasoning went something like "if I can prove that sexuality is ge…

There's also the other side: if someone is a homicidal psychopath due to their genetics, then I still do not want them to roam free. So genetically predetermined is not a good argument to use in favor of gay rights. People should be allowed to determine their own sexuality, regardless of whether that determination was preset by their genetics or not, just as people should not be allowed to commit murder regardless of whether that was preset by their genetics. (Same goes for other possible sources of determination.)

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#173
post #60

> The study authors also point out that they followed convention for genetic analyses by dropping from their study people whose biological sex and self-identified gender did not match. As a result, the work doesn’t include sexual and gender minorities (the LGBTQ community) such as transgender people and intersex people. I don't get it, isn't this the whole point of the study? The G in LGBTQ stands for "gay", did they…

Last time I checked gay wasn't a gender.

So they likely excluded transsexual men (biological women) who are attracted to men and vice versa.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#174

People latched onto the idea that sexuality is genetically determined because it seemed like the only viable way to defend themselves against rampant religious bigotry and oppression. It was a rope dangling into the well you were trapped in, and the well was filling with acid, but if you could just manage to climb that rope then you'd make it out. The reasoning went something like "if I can prove that sexuality is ge…

> But that's always been a fucked up idea. It shouldn't matter whether it was predetermined or otherwise not in your control. If it's constructed then it's constructed. If it's not then it's not. People shouldn't be oppressed for their sexuality full stop, regardless of reason. You are right, I think, to root the conflict in religion. The dominant religion in the West, Christianity, treats the human body as a given.…

Plus it doesn't make sense from a Christian perspective. The Roman Catholic branch and derivatives all believe everyone is genetically predisposed to sin through Adam's lineage, and that is a bad thing, and we don't have a choice in the matter. So saying homosexuality is a genetic predisposition just means it gets lumped into the rest of our fallen attributes. Making it a choice doesn't fix things either, since a choice can be intrinsically sinful. There is no other way than to deny that homosexuality is wrong. Yet that is difficult to do, since sexuality has such an obvious role to play in the perpetuation of the human race. If it were normative then the human race would not exist. So the most straightforward explanation is it is a deviation from the way things should be, as is much else in our human nature, which in turn points to a standard that we deviate from.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#175
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. * the same gene can have different phenotypes in different individuals. One phenotype may be net negative but the benefit from the other makes it net positive. * in social animal gene can be carried by relatives. Extreme example is ants and bees, most of them are not fertile but they help to spread their genes by helping those who are.

More than just that, as far as I can see, there is no reason this only applies to social species. If it benefits the pool that x% of members have a trait, even full sterility, then the genetics will result in x% having that trait, as long as the benefit continues to exist. I'm not sure what an example mechanism might be for some mountain cats or spiders or whatever that the species benefits from 4% of their members b…

Let's assume the benefit is improved female fertility. If it's an autosomal trait, half of the carriers will be male, and lead to the vast majority of them refusing to have offspring. That would require the sisters to have a pretty spectacular bump in the number of offspring to offset their gay brothers. Indeed, since the trait is clearly polygenic, all the sisters do not inherit the trait equally, if at all. The sisters who do inherit it would have to be spectacularly fecund to compensate.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#176

People latched onto the idea that sexuality is genetically determined because it seemed like the only viable way to defend themselves against rampant religious bigotry and oppression. It was a rope dangling into the well you were trapped in, and the well was filling with acid, but if you could just manage to climb that rope then you'd make it out. The reasoning went something like "if I can prove that sexuality is ge…

You're collapsing a huge societal design space into a narrow, ultra-individualistic western viewpoint. Your point only makes sense in societies that take it as a given that individual autonomy trumps the right of society to enforce behavioral, moral, and social norms. That approach is not morally required and almost no non-western society embraces that viewpoint. Almost all of Asia and Africa accepts that requiring conformity in voluntary lifestyle and personal expression is legitimate. There is nothing special about sexuality in that respect--nearly everyone in the world thinks its perfectly legitimate for societies to, for example, impose taboos on sexual activity outside the bounds of some marriage-like relationship. By your reasoning, modern western sexual permissiveness is morally required--even when it comes to voluntary choices. That's a radical (and quite ethnocentric) claim.

In that context, whether something is a choice, versus a characteristic that cannot easily be changed, is tremendously important. It elevates the issue from ordinary policing of norms into the realm of human rights.

And of course, it's ridiculous to say that people "latched on" to sexual orientation being immutable to appease "bigots." Sexuality being immutable (or at least not easily changed) is an observation that rests on the experience of countless individuals who suffered tremendous pain and suffering trying to deny their sexual orientation. And the article, of course, nowhere suggests that sexual orientation is a choice. Many things are immutable characteristics, or at least not easily changeable--without being traceable to a specific gene.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#177
Makes me wonder if there was a lot of thought given to ethics when planning this study.

If we've learned anything, we should know that people will be terrible enough to want to "cure" homosexuality or detect it before birth, like trisomy 21, if it ever will become possible - and research like this will lead to that.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, and it isn't a static thing defined at birth by nature, it can change backwards and forwards over a lifetime. Not sure why i'm getting a hard time from our co-commenters. I assumed this place being primarily US and Tech it would be quite liberal.

I'm quite (socially) liberal and I thought your post was simply wrong, for starters. Among the places you can ask the question "what is being gay" without getting "dogpiled" are countless gay sites. Aren't gay sites part of the internet?

How can a question be wrong?

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#179

I'd definitely be surprised if a significant portion of homosexuality wasn't environmental, but to my knowledge there is a degree of heritability shown in twin studies. Actually reading the article shows that they found several genes that each contribute, but no single gene. That shouldn't be surprising to anyone, considering that almost every complex trait is somewhat affected by a huge number of genes each tweaking…

The same goes for a cause we'd consider purely environmental, such as an illness caused by an infection. There will still be lots of associated genes with small effect determining how resilient a person is to the infection. Twins share environmental causes from early stages of development (like an infection during pregnancy) so that angle gets potentially confounded too.

Re: The largest study to date on the genetic basis of sexuality (2019)

#180
post #60

> The study authors also point out that they followed convention for genetic analyses by dropping from their study people whose biological sex and self-identified gender did not match. As a result, the work doesn’t include sexual and gender minorities (the LGBTQ community) such as transgender people and intersex people. I don't get it, isn't this the whole point of the study? The G in LGBTQ stands for "gay", did they…

Last time I checked gay wasn't a gender. So they likely excluded transsexual men (biological women) who are attracted to men and vice versa.

The text I quoted says "sexual and gender minorities (the LGBTQ community)". The G in LGBTQ stands for "gay".

It also says "people whose biological sex and self-identified gender did not match" which seems to include biological males who identify as women. (But maybe you're right and the article is imprecise, and what they meant is just that they excluded F to M transsexuals).

Then we could also question whether there is or not a a higher probability for gays to also initiate a gender transition- my hunch is that there is, although of course being gay doesn't per se imply a desire to transition to the opposite sex.

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