I don't understand all the Crypto hate on this site. Since when have hackers become the luddites to new ways of finance?
Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in the future
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Re: Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in the future
#892I love the idea of Bitcoin. But, as someone who's been working in banking for more than a decade - what problem does Bitcoin solve? Serious question; 'cause I'm failing to come up with a good answer. Edit: The closest I've come to answering this: To me Bitcoin is more a decentralized international payment protocol (such as SWIFT); not a store of value / currency. But I rarely see it being pitched in that way.
The original intention was to create "an electronic payment system based on cryptographic proof instead of trust, allowing any two willing parties to transact directly with each other without the need for a trusted third party."
Although starting as a decentralized payment protocol, the idea of trustless decentralization turned out to be applicable to store of value and use as a currency.
For the 3 aforementioned points:
1. You don't need to trust anyone to verify payment transactions.
2. You don't need to trust any group (the Federal Reserve, the gold or diamond industry, etc.) for it to be a store of value. (which is, eliminating unpredictability on the supply side[1])
3. You don't need to have any particular reason, other than public adoption[2], for it to become a common currency.
Let's consider the fiat comparison to US dollars.
1. You need to trust financial institutions to handle transactions.
2. You need to trust the Federal Reserve to be responsible about management of supply.
3. The US dollar is backed by the strength of the US government and the US economy.
If all of these things were true (as it somewhat usually is), everything works fine. But fraud/backcharges/misc. happen, recessions happen and the Fed can be judicious about pulling certain financial levers, and it's entirely possible that the currency of the future becomes something else, like the Chinese Yuan, because of changes in world power.
[1] Bitcoins supply is released at a fixed rate, which makes it predictable, tying its value much more closely to demand than supply. This value eventually becomes completely demand-driven once the last Bitcoin is mind.
[2] The catch-22 of bitcoin public adoption - it's only useful if everyone is using it, but there isn't anything else that makes you want to use it. It would be like if it was 1776, and instead of introducing a US dollar backed by gold, you introduced the modern version backed by debt.
This is why the news of the past few months of institutional adoption is so monumental - it indicates a tipping point of the beginning of stable public adoption, a problem that is completely outside of the hands of the technical driving forces of cryptocurrency.
Re: Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in the future
#893I don't understand all the Crypto hate on this site. Since when have hackers become the luddites to new ways of finance?
> I don't understand all the Crypto hate on this site. Since when have hackers become the luddites to new ways of finance? For me, it's because nobody can explain what the value offering of Bitcoin is - mainly the question 'what can I actualy do with a bitcoin?' . It's a bad currency because it is slow to exchange and costs lots of money to exchange - I can't use it to buy my coffee in the morning. It's a bad non-spe…
Re: Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in the future
#894And if no one would use it as a currency where is the value in it?
It’s always seemed like a chicken and egg thing to me.
Re: Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in the future
#895Earlier quoted context omitted.
" Bitcoin is a way for me to step outside that debt I did not want or deserve" Try paying your taxes in Bitcoin. Then you'll find that it has nothing to do with trust and everything to do with avoiding having your assets stripped by the IRS. You want to live in a jurisdiction, then you pony up the tokens that jurisdiction demands. Or you lose your liberty and everything you own.
> Try paying your taxes in Bitcoin. It's happening already: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/-crypto-valley--canton-to-accep... > You want to live in a jurisdiction, then you pony up the tokens that jurisdiction demands. It has less to do with paying the taxes in the currency used by the State and more with protecting your wealth at the same that you can keep yourself liquid. If you ever experienced hyperinflation you wo…
Re: Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in the future
#896Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's possible that the central banks are going to save us this time. One of the problem of 1929 was that the central banks got in on the token hoarding and exacerbated the dangerous dynamics. I still find this move by Tesla somewhat ominous, this being the new roaring 20s and all.
> gold hoarding caused the economy to collapse in 1929 You have a source for that?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression#The_gold_stan...
I mean it wasn't strictly gold hoarding it was gold tied currencies hoarding.
Re: Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in the future
#897YFFA (your favorite fintech app) still has many advantages over Bitcoin. When sending money: YFFA free, Bitcoin not free YFFA instant, Bitcoin not instant YFFA has fraud protection, Bitcoin does not YFFA approved by government regulation, Bitcoin still not However, there is one thing YFFA does not give you, a shot at 10x or 100x your money.
Bitcoin's proposed solution is a (cryptographically) permanent one-way transaction, that can only be initiated by the person who owns the Bitcoin. The analogy would be an in-person cash transaction - $100 in my pocket can only be handed over if I choose to do so, and no amount of begging or pleading with the receiving party will allow me to convince them to give it back.
I think any fraud that can be committed in cash though, would probably be applicable to Bitcoin. But I can't seem to think of any examples off the top of my head, so LMK if you think of any.
Re: Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in the future
#898Bitcoin is a mystery to me. Somehow it's hailed as revolutionising the economy, by replacing currency with a worse kind of currency. It feels like this is where all the "how to get rich quick" book writers and other hustle bros went and created one giant financial pyramid, which works in quite simple way: - buy bitcoin - tell everyone around how revolutionary it is, so they buy it and what you holding increases in va…
Everything flies out of the window when they discover Bitcoin. Suddenly they don't want to work anymore and just buy Bitcoin and confessed they've been stupid all this time railing against Bitcoin.
Re: Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in the future
#899Earlier quoted context omitted.
At least you can build useful things out of gold
a statement like this is exactly why people still don't understand the value of Bitcoin. The usefulness of a store of value has no relation to its actual value. The value comes from the network effect of others also agreeing that it has value. What usefulness does a $100 million painting have?
Re: Tesla buys $1.5B in Bitcoin, may accept it as payment in the future
#900Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you not see the pitfalls of the MLM structure of Bitcoin, along with the "army of HODLers" who are financially incentivized to speak positively and promote Bitcoin? Consensus through profit, financial incentive, is lazy - and arguably greedy - vs. doing the actual work of building real trust, and aligning people through real trust and relationship, community building; there is an argument that Bitcoin is required…
> Do you not see the pitfalls of the MLM structure of Bitcoin I guess not, as I don't see Bitcoin as any MLM scheme. You seem confused regarding how the price is set for Bitcoin. It doesn't automatically increase the more people are using Bitcoin. It's entirely set by the open market of what people want to buy/sell Bitcoin for, nothing else. For it to be a MLM, current holders of Bitcoin would have to receive Bitcoin…
And you're going to be able to argue that it's not being manipulated by people who already own Bitcoin, who want to make it seem like there's an upward trend, which of course enriches weighted towards the earliest adopters? In fact there's multiple occurrences of evidence by researchers seeing this kind of manipulative behaviour done by just a few actors.
"For it to be a MLM, current holders of Bitcoin would have to receive Bitcoin for each new person who gets/uses Bitcoin, which is clearly not the case."
What? No, the Bitcoin they already own increases in value - that's quite the gymnastics in your logic, there's no need for an increase in actual ownership unit wise.
"Most if not all of the early holders/investors/users of Bitcoin did so because it was fun."
Hilarious, fun as in gambling fun perhaps - otherwise there's countless people talking about how much money you can make by buying into Bitcoin, along with people talking about how they're doing it for profit - and don't care if it's an MLM or gambling. You've really convinced yourself of these narratives though?
Please don't misappropriate/equate actual stocks of companies to being equivalent to crypto-assets/crypto-"currencies."
It's simply disingenuous to claim it doesn't overlay perfectly with MLM schemes. You've not proven anything. We could actually create charts to overlay the benefit/behaviours of MLM schemes with Bitcoin and it would match perfectly.
There's another way to create consensus among society, and it doesn't require tapping into greed to align the greedy or gullible - and the VC-finance industrial complex - into alignment. It's through democratically elected governments created blockchain databases so governments are forced to be transparent, among the other benefits, and then mandating through law that they are used - with proper safety measures to counter potential pitfalls - and without redistributing wealth from the latest adopters to the earliest adopters. It will be a challenge to counter the "army of HODLers" and attempt at regulatory capture that will continue to reach as far into society as it can.
I'm far from alone in this understanding I have, and I'm not financially incentivized to write all of this out either; most people who see the same as me simply aren't spending the effort to counter the "army of HODLers" who inevitably use similar gymnastics or simply the lazy downvote mechanism to suppress counter-narratives.