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Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

theregister.com

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Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#261

Post by heavyset_go »

hastradamus wrote: post #110

The co-founder of the company, Mark Perlin, is said to have argued against source code analysis by claiming that the program, consisting of 170,000 lines of MATLAB code, is so dense it would take eight and a half years to review at a rate of ten lines an hour. This is hilarious. As if you need to read every damn line and you can’t skip blank lines? You can skip whole files that aren’t relevant. Weak excuse

"It could take too long :(" is an interesting excuse not to examine the evidence that could put someone behind bars for the rest of their life.

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#262

Post by Aerroon »

2112 wrote: post #239
jerf wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt there's any system in the world where it's officially the job of a prosecutor to "convict someone at all costs". It certainly isn't in the US. Nevertheless....

Most of the very real dynamics that affect all of our lives at a policy-making / systemic level are never official. If you think the official stuff is a reflection of reality ... I don't know how to finish this sentence. Safe from it being "official", it is very much the job of a prosecutor in the US to convict someone at all costs. This is common knowledge.

The Soviet Union is a perfect example of this. They had set up a proper republic. It had a constitution, elections, there were government posts etc. The problem was that the Party came first. The official that held the government post might've had the legal power, but in reality they were rubber stamps for the Party.

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#263

Post by nolok »

qwertox wrote: post #201

Here in Germany we have somewhat similar cases, but where the accusation is way less damaging than the case of this article, in which a false positive would have the drastic result of being labeled a murderer. The cases are related to new speeding cameras which work with laser, where the defendants are complaining that these new devices are black boxes, and that they demand access to the raw data which these devices…

Now all you need is the proper amount of collusion/corruption between the certifying agency and the manufacturer to have a magic box that does whatever the one paying the bills want. Might seem far fetched in a developped country, until you read about the Boeing/FAA thing happened.

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#264

Post by heavyset_go »

TheRealDunkirk wrote: post #41
zyngaro wrote: post #39

This kind of software should be required by law to be open source.

Yes, just like voting machines. But how do we confirm that the software which was vetted is the software that was actually _used_?

Well, for voting, you just don't use machines. Counting by hand is an easy algorithm to audit, and literally any adult that can count is able to audit the process themselves.

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#265

Post by Spivak »

bdavisx wrote: post #177
nickodell wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My prediction: this firm will probably try to get removed from the case, rather than open source their shitty code. That isn't necessarily their choice. The prosecutors will make the decision about whether to withdraw the DNA evidence. They probably won't, given that they would need to give the defendant a new trial, which could lead to an accused murderer getting off. A bad look for any prosecutor. More to the poin…

It would also give every person convicted using their software an incentive to open an appeal.

I like how this is considered a bad thing. Like we can’t let this guy point out that he’s being convicted by an unauditable black box that suddenly isn’t worth using if it has to stand up to scrutiny because then everyone would want to. The horror.

Like I’m actually kinda shocked this is the reality. I would have assumed that DNA evidence would have some blessed methodologies and tools/algorithms, with a strict definition of what constitutes a match or partial match specifically so this wouldn’t happen.

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#267

Post by [deleted] »

[deleted] wrote: post #260
AS37 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to encourage you, 5 minutes after you learn about someone's existence, not to wish for their death, execution, imprisonment, and /or disenfranchisement. The real world is too complicated to judge correctly in that time. As well, please remember that the comment guidelines exist at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#268

Post by Jolter »

chadlavi wrote: post #89

While this may lead to more transparent technology use in the justice system, a more realistic outcome is that everyone accused of any crime where a technology was used in the process of determining guilt (which could get quite picayune; did the prosecutor's office use Excel? Is that something the defendant could demand to check the source code on?) will use this as a way to slow-roll the process indefinitely.

Since when do defendants have an interest in prolonged sentencing processes? For major crimes like this, they are in jail with restrictions. They would get better treatment once sentenced, in the prison system, wouldn’t they?

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#269

Post by [deleted] »

IgorPartola wrote: post #208
IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think we can all agree that black boxes are not desirable. But let's not jump the gun here, and assume ill-intent.... to explain something that can be attributed to negligence, or simple human error.

When your negligence results in people wrongfully spending decades in prison I would argue that it ought to be criminal negligence. If your software does not produce results that are accurate, precise, and have confidence intervals included, how OK are you with people going to prison based on them?

[deleted]

Re: Accused murderer wins right to check source code of DNA testing kit

#270

Post by nobody9999 »

benlivengood wrote: post #187
bardworx wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, maybe I’m naive, but why is that obvious? Not arguing just trying to understand. My rationale is: prosecutors have to weigh an “easy” conviction vs the possibility that labs that always guarantee results may be biased. In the event that they get caught up with a biased lab, wouldn’t it look bad for their reputation? As in, they can’t even perform due diligence on their sources, how can you trust them in a promote…

> In the event that they get caught up with a biased lab, wouldn’t it look bad for their reputation? As in, they can’t even perform due diligence on their sources, how can you trust them in a promoted role? I am not a lawyer but as I understand the U.S. criminal justice system (which is adversarial between defense and prosecution with the judge officiating and the jury picking the winner) prosecutors are not experts…

>I am not a lawyer but as I understand the U.S. criminal justice system (which is adversarial between defense and prosecution with the judge officiating and the jury picking the winner)

That process happens very rarely. Federal criminal cases are resolved via plea bargain in ~97% of cases and state criminal cases are resolved via plea bargain in ~94% of cases[0].

This is a travesty of justice, especially since most defendants are severely over-charged and often face long prison sentences if they actually insist on (and can afford) a trial.

Those practices, along with cash bail, force even innocent people to plead guilty to avoid having their lives destroyed by bankruptcy, loss of employment, homes and even custody of their children.

And once they have a criminal conviction, they are stigmatized for life and are shut out of many jobs.

In most of these cases, the forensic evidence (if any) is never presented. For a discussion of this, as well as American forensic practices, see Blood, Powder and Residue[1], by Beth Bechky (Author discussion can be found here[2]).

While there are no required standards for forensics labs in the US (with some exceptions[4]), there are accreditation programs (example[3]), and not all forensic laboratories are for-profit companies.

I'm not defending the quality or independence of any particular forensic lab, but it's definitely more diverse than just a bunch of corrupt, rapacious scum sucking at the teat of prosecutors' budgets.

That said, most criminal defendants are at a significant disadvantage when it comes to performing/challening forensic research, as many state and federal labs provide such services for prosecutors, while defendants need to pay, often through the nose for them.

It's just another way the US "justice" system is stacked against criminal defendants.

[0] https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/prisons-are-packed-bec...

[1] https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691183589/bl...

[2] https://www.c-span.org/video/?508130-1/blood-powder-residue

[3] https://anab.ansi.org/en/forensic-accreditation

[4] https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-...

Edit: Added notation for reference [1]

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