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Rust Foundation: Hello, World

foundation.rust-lang.org

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Re: Rust Foundation: Hello, World

#61

Post by sho_hn »

> The decision making power within the Rust project is uniquely delegated and distributed; with the core team holding little more privilege than other more specialized teams. [...] And the potential of such a system has bore fruit: It is not a mistake that such a promising technology has emerged from such a progressive conception of collaboration.

These are values and thoughts describing an approach that the KDE community (and its foundation; hello from another board!) holds equally dearly and has inscribed in its Manifesto (https://manifesto.kde.org/, cf. Common Ownership).

While maybe not unique, I'm excited to see another organization adopt this idea set (a support body not interfering with technical agenda, low barriers to participation, not entrenching maintainers, working succession mechanisms, etc.) as a core message. We've seen it work very well to sustain a productive community for 25 years and I think this bodes well for Rust!

Re: Rust Foundation: Hello, World

#62

Post by nojito »

lvass wrote: post #46
ChrisSD wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rust is already in Debian's repository. The trademarks haven't been an issue at all.

It seems no one had to rebrand Rust yet, but can you guarantee this will always be the case? Firefox was fine in debian until 2006.

Mozilla Foundation != Mozilla Corporation.

Which is why there was an issue with branding.

Re: Rust Foundation: Hello, World

#63

Post by emiliocobos »

pdpi wrote: post #22
crazypython wrote: post #15

The board's vote seems to be heavily biased in favor of large corporations, with half the seats for them, 2 for the community, and 3 for "project areas." Contrast this with the governance of GCC, which has all of them as community members or project areas.

I can't find much in the way of Rust credentials for the rest of the members but, looking at their profiles, Nell (MS's representative) used to manage crates.io while at Mozilla, and Lars (Google) used to manage the Servo team. While they are technically representing corporate interests, they're also heavily invested in the community.

Bobby (the Mozilla rep) was also heavily involved with Servo and Rust-in-Firefox, see e.g. https://bholley.net/blog/2017/stylo.html

Re: Rust Foundation: Hello, World

#64

Post by mamcx »

manishsharan wrote: post #31
malwrar wrote: post #11

Awesome news! Rust is easily the best programming experience I've had--the language feels incredibly well thought out, common tooling like doc generation and dependency management are included with the language, and the compiler takes full advantage of language features such that my editor's linter is able to detect most mistakes I make and the language itself guards me from doing anything obviously unsafe. I thought…

serious question : would you recommend Rust for CRUDdy type of web applications -- stuff where mostly you are firing off prepared statememts at a SQL db and then applying business logic to result set. This is what most J2EE apps do currently.

I have a app that have been ported from old python -> f# -> rust (e-commerce like) and the transition was great (https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/hh9tz6/does_rust_have...).

You need to pay attention in how align the whole software stack. Pairing Rust with tailwinds and htmx or Hotwire simplify so much stuff is like cheating.

For regular CRUD flows having enums/traits/iterators make domain modeling very good and found is more productive to me than F#/Python at the domain layer.

I do my own micro SQL-orm layer (I have the need to talk to +6 RDBMS and be dynamic at runtime), and most db libraries in the rust ecosystem are mature enough now.

I find recently the whole auth is not as mature as you find with Django (aka: Not need to code part of it, you can certainly do it manually), but anyway is now better to offload to key cloak or similar.

Re: Rust Foundation: Hello, World

#65

Post by ragnese »

manishsharan wrote: post #31
malwrar wrote: post #11

Awesome news! Rust is easily the best programming experience I've had--the language feels incredibly well thought out, common tooling like doc generation and dependency management are included with the language, and the compiler takes full advantage of language features such that my editor's linter is able to detect most mistakes I make and the language itself guards me from doing anything obviously unsafe. I thought…

serious question : would you recommend Rust for CRUDdy type of web applications -- stuff where mostly you are firing off prepared statememts at a SQL db and then applying business logic to result set. This is what most J2EE apps do currently.

I currently do it and have no regrets, but I don't require a lot of fancy stuff that you might find the Java ecosystem.

If you don't have any need for concurrent sharing of data and never really miss having destructors in a managed language, then I'd guess that Rust wouldn't be a great fit for a CRUDy backend.

Scala and Kotlin are great choices there. They have good type systems (everyone loves Rust's enum types, which are just ADTs and exist in many other languages as well), they have garbage collection- so no borrow checker headaches, and they have the massive Java ecosystem if and when you need it.

On the other hand, all programming languages are greater than the sum of their parts. Rust is more than just a checklist of "borrow checker, fancy enums, no exceptions, move semantics, etc, etc". You might just love the language even if it's not "objectively" better for your use case than something else. That's where I am. I spent years doing C++ and I instantly fell in love with Rust. It's not perfect, but it's usually my first choice when doing almost any project. I only ask myself "Is Rust such a bad fit for this task that I'm significantly hindering myself?" and/or "Is FooLang so PERFECT for this task that not using it is stupid?".

Re: Rust Foundation: Hello, World

#66

Post by chc »

jdright wrote: post #55
steveklabnik wrote: post #13

Hey folks! Normally, I am all over these threads answering questions, but I am not on the foundation board and did none of the real work to get this going! The foundation members are unlikely to comment on Hacker News, so if you have big questions you want answered, contacting them via the address on the site is the right way. Personally, I am very excited that this is happening, and really looking forward to the fut…

I would like to raise awareness to a tiny detail: > February 9th, at 4pm CT. When using local time zones we should strive to always also add the equivalent GMT time to a global audience - even if this audience will not participate in the meeting, it is good to have an idea of when that is actually happening without needing to go through a timezone converter.

I don't think I understand. Those are both just time zones, right? So knowing what time it happens elsewhere requires a conversion no matter what time zone you gave originally, doesn't it?

Re: Rust Foundation: Hello, World

#67

Post by protoman3000 »

yudlejoza wrote: post #43

As a C developer, after getting sick and tired of hearing about Rust everywhere, I decided to do a bit of assessment in terms of code-size complexity. I heard of ripgrep, an amazing twenty-first century revolution that beats grep in the dust. I have never seen grep source code. I told myself, if I download ripgrep-on-Rust and grep-on-C and find out that ripgrep is doing all it's doing in one-tenth the size of grep so…

The amount of damage stupid and overconfident people can cause with sharp tools like C is a too high to bear risk. That’s why we instead use Java or (God forbid) JavaScript, but at the expense of speed.

Rust tries to gain back this lost speed without making it too easy for idiots to destroy everything. Such code can of course look larger and more convoluted than over decades on every corner optimized C code, but at least we’re as fast as C and much safer from ignorant people.

Re: Rust Foundation: Hello, World

#68

Post by JeremyNT »

manishsharan wrote: post #31
malwrar wrote: post #11

Awesome news! Rust is easily the best programming experience I've had--the language feels incredibly well thought out, common tooling like doc generation and dependency management are included with the language, and the compiler takes full advantage of language features such that my editor's linter is able to detect most mistakes I make and the language itself guards me from doing anything obviously unsafe. I thought…

serious question : would you recommend Rust for CRUDdy type of web applications -- stuff where mostly you are firing off prepared statememts at a SQL db and then applying business logic to result set. This is what most J2EE apps do currently.

I'm mostly a rails developer and really want to get into Rust. I went through the tutorial and did some practice on Excersism. I'm not a rust expert but I enjoyed working with it and learning about it.

With that disclaimer: as of now, what rust lacks is a comprehensive framework for web development.

I'm sure your story in the J2EE world is similar to rails: you have libraries that you can use to abstract away a lot of repetitive things such as authentication. You probably also have a framework-aware test suite that integrates with something like Selenium. You may have abstractions around javascript build systems like Rails' webpacker that allow you to easily integrate SPAs directly into your app using the same overall tooling. There's so much code you don't have to write, and you probably don't think much about it, and you probably just take it for granted.

This is not the story with Rust. There are some frameworks such as Rocket you can reach for, but when I evaluated the situation ~6 months ago I realized I couldn't justify using Rust for this yet. From a web development perspective, there was just too much busy work you'd need to do.

I don't think this is an inherent limitation of the language, by the way. I think Rust is a lot of fun to work with and I wouldn't hesitate to use it once a more robust library ecosystem is developed for this use case. I'm always keeping an eye open for places where it would fit what I do, like a small performance-sensitive microservice for example. The type system is powerful, it's great (as a Ruby developer who last worked with C++ a long time ago) to work with a compiled language again. The type system, Rust linter, and compiler together catch many classes of trivial errors that you need to test against in Ruby.

I hope it'll get there one day!

Re: Rust Foundation: Hello, World

#69

Post by redis_mlc »

manishsharan wrote: post #31
malwrar wrote: post #11

Awesome news! Rust is easily the best programming experience I've had--the language feels incredibly well thought out, common tooling like doc generation and dependency management are included with the language, and the compiler takes full advantage of language features such that my editor's linter is able to detect most mistakes I make and the language itself guards me from doing anything obviously unsafe. I thought…

serious question : would you recommend Rust for CRUDdy type of web applications -- stuff where mostly you are firing off prepared statememts at a SQL db and then applying business logic to result set. This is what most J2EE apps do currently.

No, because rust is extremely picky about types and casts, which makes for a large learning curve for no real advantage in text processing.

Expect to be much less productive until you get your own toy programs working.

Re: Rust Foundation: Hello, World

#70

Post by adamch »

yudlejoza wrote: post #43

As a C developer, after getting sick and tired of hearing about Rust everywhere, I decided to do a bit of assessment in terms of code-size complexity. I heard of ripgrep, an amazing twenty-first century revolution that beats grep in the dust. I have never seen grep source code. I told myself, if I download ripgrep-on-Rust and grep-on-C and find out that ripgrep is doing all it's doing in one-tenth the size of grep so…

ripgrep's src/ contain both library code and unit tests. The grep source code appears to use different tests/ and src/ directories.

ripgre's source code files appear to be between 1/3 and 1/2 unit tests, in the few samples I checked. For example, https://github.com/BurntSushi/ripgrep/blob/master/crates/sea...

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