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Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#481

Post by babesh »

zepto wrote: post #479
babesh wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you don’t care about hypocrisy. And you don’t care about religious freedom either.

Thanks for being honest. I care about hypocrisy. I just don’t think it’s a moral issue, because everyone is a hypocrite from someone else’s point of view. I care about religious freedom quite deeply, indeed more so than most freedoms. I am interested in constructive steps to improve it. Pakistan is a theocracy, where as many as 90% of the population are Sunni Muslim. The Ahmediyya are a modern sect founded in the lat…

Hypocrisy is a moral issue. It plays into the principle of fairness that even animals have. If that isn’t morality, then almost nothing is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy

Also, it is right to call it like it is. Telling the truth as you see it is the right thing to do. Not telling the truth is not right.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#482

Post by mabbo »

sneak wrote: post #311
mabbo wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not I've said this before, but if you only do the ethical thing when it doesn't cost you anything, you aren't actually an ethical person. You're just an opportunist. Companies that say they have to do the unethical thing because otherwise shareholders will get mad or fire them, well they're doing the same thing, but it's avoiding personal costs (ri…

Context for anyone who doesn't know: Apple, by law, operates iCloud/iMessage servers in China in the physical control of the CCP (presumably enabling wiretapping and censorship on-demand) to be able to offer those services to iPhone users in China. https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/25/18020508/how-china-compl...

Honestly, I didn't know that specific thing. I was speaking generally.

The first time I said it was to someone who told me that while they personally have no problem with people of other races, they could never hire someone "like that" to work and their business because the racist town they lived in wouldn't like it, and it would hurt business.

This person was totally against racism, unless it would hurt them financially.

Taking an ethical stand when it doesn't hurt you isn't taking an ethical stand.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#483

Post by mabbo »

wizardofmysore wrote: post #404
mabbo wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not I've said this before, but if you only do the ethical thing when it doesn't cost you anything, you aren't actually an ethical person. You're just an opportunist. Companies that say they have to do the unethical thing because otherwise shareholders will get mad or fire them, well they're doing the same thing, but it's avoiding personal costs (ri…

How is it ethical to deny information discovery to oppressed people?

That's called "finding a justification for unethical behaviour".

"Well overall it's better if I do the unethical thing because when you think about it REALLY it's for the best- and yes, I'll make some extra money this way, but that's unrelated to why I've searched my soul for any reason to make this okay".

Google et al aren't denying information to oppressed people. Their governments are. The companies have to decide whether they will be complicit or not.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#484

Post by zepto »

babesh wrote: post #481
zepto wrote: post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for being honest. I care about hypocrisy. I just don’t think it’s a moral issue, because everyone is a hypocrite from someone else’s point of view. I care about religious freedom quite deeply, indeed more so than most freedoms. I am interested in constructive steps to improve it. Pakistan is a theocracy, where as many as 90% of the population are Sunni Muslim. The Ahmediyya are a modern sect founded in the lat…

Hypocrisy is a moral issue. It plays into the principle of fairness that even animals have. If that isn’t morality, then almost nothing is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy Also, it is right to call it like it is. Telling the truth as you see it is the right thing to do. Not telling the truth is not right.

I notice you say “It’s right to call it like it is”, and not “It’s right to call it like you see it”.

This is a form of self-delusion. You believe you see an absolute truth, rather than just a perspective.

If you read it the Wikipedia article, you’ll see it mentions hypocrisy as a moral principle in Islam, and other religions.

However it also talks about how it’s a psychological feature of being human.

According to that article, you are a hypocrite, along with everyone else.

That isn’t grounds for a moral foundation.

There is a distinction between hypocrisy and lying.

And, as I have already stated, everyone is a hypocrite from someone else’s point of view.

I see you continue to confirm that you have nothing to offer that can help freedom of religion in Pakistan.

You have never actually claimed that freedom of religion was your goal, and conceded that it wasn’t when I pressed you, but you have criticized me for not caring about it.

That seems like a clear case of hypocrisy to me - criticizing someone else for not caring about something, that you yourself do not care about.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#485

Post by passivate »

birksherty wrote: post #408
passivate wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Apple and Google put themselves in a position where they became a part of the problem. If they ran open platforms where they don't have to power to ban apps this would never have happened. In this particular case, what problem would open platforms solve? The laws in Pakistan still exist and the social problem is not addressed. Or are you implying that Apple and Google should be on the hook for solving religious prob…

They can't ban a windows pc software like this as it's not walled garden. When phones come with app store, they must be responsible.

They can block the hosting servers, domains, etc. They can also block you from searching the name of the app, etc. There are multiple tools of censorship that are available to governments. Banning the app is the easiest.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#486

Post by therealdrag0 »

fleshdaddy wrote: post #126
thaumasiotes wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's to stop any government from telling Apple and Google that an app is illegal? Nothing; that's most of the idea of a government.

It would seem to me that in the case of apps they’re telling us what information is legal. That isn’t most of the idea of government for people.

That’s why we need good government.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#488

Post by quetzthecoatl »

webmobdev wrote: post #478
quetzthecoatl wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

Caste system is officially illegal - has been for a long time. The laws are so positive on caste, the judiciary had to step in to dilute the SC/ST atrocities act. There are affirmative actions for the lower castes on Hindu run institutions and government institutions.

As touching as your concerns for us, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and advocate for social justice for EWS and historically disadvanted SC/STs in minority run schools, colleges and institutions, or advocate for adding the lower castes to the minority list. Let me add women as well there. Add women, sc, st, obcs to the minority list.

Let me also add a personal observation here. As a dalit, the most caste based abuse that I have got was from christians. Some from really old Hindus, and some soft bigotry due to reservations. Whether it's the "blood purity" preserving thomas christians, not allowing dalit christians to be buried at the same place as others, or outright murdering a dalit christian because he got married to an upper caste christian, the caste system unapologetically flourishes today among christians, while the hindu community progresses forward on caste (disclaimer: south indian here - can't speak for other parts of country).

>The lower castes don't need a separate schools

Again, not upto you. It should be upto the lower castes to decide their destiny and to select the best way for their social mobility. I say a school in which they don't feel discriminated is important. I say a school in which they feel at home is important. I say - it's none of your business.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#489

Post by dang »

nomoreusernames wrote: post #281
djrogers wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a great argument for Governments that support religious freedom. Not sure I follow your logic to a conclusion that makes Apple and Google the villains here though. A&G have a binary choice - serve users in (Oppressive Country X) or not. There is no choice that involves serving those users but not following the oppressive laws of said country.

french secularism is beautiful. all are equal under law. and freedom FROM religion. if your friend and his friends had this thing where they chopped of skin from their babies genitals. would you be ok with that? why is it ok when religious people do it? clearly following dogma in this case over reason is the symptom of mental illness or damage. religions are much more oppressive if you ask me. they function without a…

Please don't take HN threads further into religious flamewar. This is exactly what we don't want here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#490

Post by dang »

webmobdev wrote: post #477
quetzthecoatl wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

You are both breaking the HN guidelines egregiously. Religious and nationalistic flamewar is not welcome here, neither are personal swipes, and we don't want tedious tit-for-tat spats.

Please don't do anything like this on HN again, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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