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Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

franck-leroy.medium.com

231–240 of 266 posts

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#231

No joke, I want to apeal to the Greta Thunberg type activists/followers and Extinction Rebellion crowds; so, if Franck Leroy wants to have a chat (your misguided attack is absurd and BTC just hit another ATH in the time you wrote that) I extend a friendly open-invitation to discuss how as an environmentalist myself with a background in sustainable Ag, farmers rights, farm to table, and anti nuclear activism we can ge…

> so, if Franck Leroy wants to have a chat

I'm thoroughly convinced this author is a made up pseudonym. No other articles, no information on what development work they do for what project paired with a generalized emotional call-to-action while misunderstanding fundamentals.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#232
post #69

There is fundamentally no way to reduce bitcoin or blockchain energy consumption, it is the very thing which enables decentralized trustless transactions and the quality required implies a minimum power use. Everything else uses authority in one way or another, and is vulnerable in ways btc is not. Reducing energy use for environmental reasons is ridiculous, the sun gives plenty of power and we have fissile materials…

"There is fundamentally no way to reduce bitcoin or blockchain energy consumption, it is the very thing which enables decentralized trustless transactions and the quality required implies a minimum power use." Why would I want to engage in trustless transactions in the first place? All desirable social relationships are based on trust and always have been. I think a need for trustless transactions implies that one or…

because by assuming blind trust (or your ability to discern who is trustworthy to interact with) with mean statistically you will get burned eventually.

Better to build systems that assume on untrusted actors as the default start state and not regret it after.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#233
post #22

Putting to one side if the attack would work, or have perverse outcomes, I do have concerns about the ludicrous amount of dirty energy used to mine coins. Proof of stake would terminate that problem?

It does not. Proof of stake would quickly devolve into the system we have in place.

you're saying that it burns as much energy, to mine state? It is a form of blockchain which demands mining, and so incurs the energy cost?

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#234

I see Bitcoin like a 21st century Apollo project. While I agree the resources appear wasted, they are supporting a revolutionary concept that holds tremendous potential to change the way the world works. Also, consider the scale of resources used by the existing financial system, with its thousands of buildings staffed by millions of people who use energy to come into work every day to keep the whole centralized syst…

I think this is a very bad comparison, for several reasons. 1. With the Apollo missions, the money being put into the project was going into research and development, so there was at least some expectation of getting new science and technology out of it. With Bitcoin,nthe money put in is going into speculation or mining, which only fuels the network. There is no reason to expect new technologies to come out of this,…

For #1, there is no actual evidence to counter that, but, the logic doesn't stand either, just, why not?

https://twitter.com/id_aa_carmack/status/1348094702550216707

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they bring enjoyment to people, and all that truly matters is the happiness of people. Money is only useful in so far as it can buy the things that people need, but making those things still requires energy in addition to money. Burning energy to make money when you can literary just will money into existence is completely absurd.

what fucking moron you are.

HN is no place for this kind of comments. Either be civilized or go away. You're polluting this forum.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#236
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would love to be proven wrong and learn something new about the sector that increases my confidence. That's great. Having an open mind is a good thing. What areas are you specifically interested in? The industry is vast with deep niches and history - mining, exchanges (online/offline/p2p), scripting ("programmable money"), private key security (software/hardware/multi-sig), BIPs/forks/governance, ATMs, end-user a…

There are some things I would like to know more: 1. Energy efficiency of the transactions and the network 2. How democratic the process to mine new coins is. 3. What steps are taken to manage frauds, speculations bubbles etc. to protect malicious actors from gaming the system.

Those are not really specific questions. But I will try my best to somehow provide useful information.

> 1. Energy efficiency of the transactions and the network

If by "transaction" you mean a single economic exchange between two agents, then the energy cost of a single transaction is impossible to measure. Many of the on-chain transactions in Bitcoin today are "batched" to reduce their total size thus saving on fees. Each of these batched on-chain transactions can easily represent dozens of individual economic exchanges. Lightning Network (LN) takes this even further with bi-directional payment channels now representing potentially tens of thousands of transactions over the lifetime of a single channel. It requires one on-chain Bitcoin transaction to "open" a bi-directional payment channel, and another transaction to "close" it. Closing is not strictly necessary and will be less so as infrastructure and tooling improves.

Bitcoin is not really one single network. It is a few different networks operating in their own niche with their own specific optimizations. Miners can operate as dumb hashing computers with no visibility or knowledge about the blockchain other than the next chunk of data to hash. Full-nodes are typically operated by the "users" that wish to carry on the mantra of "don't trust, verify"; value their personal privacy; or are a large commercial entity. The last estimates that I saw were about 10,000 publicly reachable full-nodes and another 100,000 private or non-reachable. There are also mobile wallets that can be custodial or "light clients". Then the Lightning Network (LN), which consists of public and private nodes, mobile and custodial apps, nodes backed by full-nodes and LN's version of light clients.

> 2. How democratic the process to mine new coins is.

Mining appears much more centralized than it is - due to the success of mining pools. Mining pool operators do not control all the hash power that congregates in their pool. Instead the owners of mining rigs/operators can point their rigs at the mining pool that offers them the best ROI. Of course sometimes other reasons override the profit motive but usually only temporarily - see the SegWit political / governance drama from a few years ago. Corporations (and governments) have already started investing in mining equipment in an effort to secure their own interests in the space. They will compete with each other here just as they have competed with each other over territory and natural resources for hundreds of years.

> 3. What steps are taken to manage frauds, speculations bubbles etc. to protect malicious actors from gaming the system.

Bitcoin is governed today by the same laws and rules as other systems. Fraud is fraud is fraud. Criminals, scammers, and fraudsters use banks and cash too. From the sound of it, you would prefer to err on the side of institutions and regulation. I disagree, and would prefer that individuals take personal responsibility for their own education and finances. The world is a messy place and there is no answer for 100% of the people 100% of the time.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#237

Idea: Change BTC protocol to include a new field in coinbase transactions documenting the CO2 emissions of each block. Introduce an uncle block reward like ETH. Miners agree to audits of their reports. Make block reward dependent on carbon emissions. Use rest for offset programs.

Interesting idea, but how exactly would you validate the CO2 emissions? If somebody mines a block and claims it only consumed x of CO2, how do you know it is true? What seems possible is to check what miners mined a block, and externally verify their footprint. But I don't think there is a decentralized way to do it. An entity certifying "green miners" would be a centralized authority.

Big miners would agree to audits of their resource consumption. There’s no other way.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#238
post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We need to focus on decomissioning coal/gas power plants and combustion motors for transport. Bitcoin is actively working against that. By increasing the energy demand from the network, it makes it harder to simply stop producing energy. It doesn't matter if miners are directly buying only from renewable sources (as some claim), they are still likely out-bidding someone else, who then has to go to a fossil fuel pla…

The energy consumption of BTC is minuscule when compared to total electric consumption and its physical/economic effect on power networks is similarly minuscule. Yes, it consumes and contributes to CO2. So do other electric energy consumers, like big companies like Amazon, Google. So do, orders of magnitude more than BTC, consumers of fossil fuels. BTC is just an easy inconsequential scapegoat.

BTC consumes more electricity than many individual countries in the world. It is something like 0.1% of the electrical energy consumption of the entire world. That is not insignificant, it is a huge chunk that could be stopped with virtually 0 impact on the world economy (unlike all your other examples).

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not sell that energy to other countries then, or put it to use to produce goods and services that people need? Maybe move a data center from a more polluting country to Iceland? There are many things that people actually need which could be done with that energy, but that would probably bring less money than burning it away on Bitcoin. And make no mistake, these things are still being done, just soemwhere else in…

looked at a map lately?

It could be an opportunity to invest in new mechanisms of power distribution, and be on the forefront of research in this area. It could also find more productive uses of this electricity, such as supercomputing clusters or lasers used for research.

Re: Green hackers around the world, let’s destroy Bitcoin

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

looked at a map lately?

It could be an opportunity to invest in new mechanisms of power distribution, and be on the forefront of research in this area. It could also find more productive uses of this electricity, such as supercomputing clusters or lasers used for research.

We are located too far from major client population centers for any Data hosting to make sense, you'd always deal with higher latency to either the US or European users vs hosting in those places. Few submarine cable connections (which cost hundreds of millions to run) mean high data costs versus well connected cities such as Hamburg or London or NYC.

You do realize that transmitting power via cable means moving it through large bodies of salt water (the ocean) that contribute to huge losses in EMF resistance. Not to mention a power cable from Iceland to anywhere else in the world would be 2x as long as the longest power transmission ever created.

It's more scary for me to realize you actually have no productive ideas for a country that mines BTC from renewables but STILL think you're insights are correct.

Did you know what we do with the electricity here before mining was popular?

Alcoa Aluminum smelting, Ever check out the environmental impact on smelting?

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