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How to lower the price of plant-based meat

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Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#591

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Fix that then. Replacing garbage meat with garbage ersatz meat isn’t a win.

It’s a win for the food industry, because fake meat can be made extremely cheaply, but the price is still anchored to the cost of actual meat.

That’s what’s so gross about it. We take a governance problem (bad practices in meat and dairy industry), hijack fringe movements like veganism, and turn it into way to undermine sustainable agriculture. The MBAs running big companies don’t care if burgers are from beef or ground up sawdust. It’s just cash.

Along the way, we’re tricking people into thinking that some palm oil smoothie is healthier than meat, and that sugared water filtered through oats is better than dairy.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#592
post #64

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Depends on how you do it. There are proposals for carbon tax schemes that go like "we'll pay back all the income from the carbon tax to all citizen directly". You can imagine the same for methane. Pretty sure such a proposal would be popular.

Carbon taxes apply to all GHG, including methane. We just use "carbon" as the unit.

I don't know every carbon pricing scheme in the world, but I have never heard of any that would involve agricultural methane.

The EU ETS, which is not a carbon tax, but an emission trading system, but which is the largest carbon pricing scheme in the world, does not include methane at all. The EU has just decided that they want to start monitoring methane emissions, but that's about it. They have no plans right now to regulate or price methane emissions.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#593

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> Trying to offer solutions that don't tackle the underlying problem make hard to guarantee long-term sustainability. Maybe, but solutions that go against human nature are doomed to fail in the first place. Asceticism doesn't work. Asking people to do the right thing only has a tiny marginal effect. The only solution to get long-term sustainability is to offer people a better, greener, more sustainable alternative, t…

Since when was eating meat in almost every meal in the human nature ? AFAIK this level of meat eating is limited a minority population in a very short period of the history of our species. What you say might be true of the wolf nature—hence you shouldn’t feed your dog with vegetarian diet. But humans are not dogs, and only insular population of us living in harsh climates such as the arctic have historically eaten me…

>Since when was eating meat in almost every meal in the human nature?

All the nomadic tribes, people living in mountainous areas, hunter gatherer societies in temperate climates,...

Though the question itself is pretty meaningless or misleading, since on average people today do not eat meat in almost every meal at all.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#594

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You could also just have large import tariffs on food. I’m honestly suprised the us doesn’t just have a 25%+ import tariff. Would quickly cause more domestic manufacturing. Like why do we even import garlic from China. We have plenty of domestic ability to produce.

Tariffs are a much worse idea than direct subsidies to farmers. If you want people to buy American garlic, pay US farmers to sell it for cheaper than the Chinese garlic. A tariff is a regressive tax that makes life harder for the poor.

You assume the us needs to export food outside of North America.

America and/or North America is big enough of a domestic market to not need to export food.

Europe already has import tariffs on many American goods. Any broad import tariff actually benefits Americans more than it harms.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#595
post #553

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That is much closer to my standpoint then. I think it’s silly to imitate meat, when there are plenty of delicious vegetarian dishes. For example tofu dishes.

How is that different from saying: "It's silly to eat Indian food [prepared by Americans] when there are plenty delicious American dishes"? No one is forced to eat fake meat, but as vegetarian who likes burgers, how am I silly for eating fake meat burgers? I also eat tofu, vegetables, Indian, Italian, and Vietnamese food, and I think variety is a nice thing to have. Silly me.

I honestly think that meat eaters are missing out when they eat these fake meat burgers (or beef burgers for that matter). You can put so many things between these buns some of these are really delicious. The variety of the veggie patties is amazing. When I order a veggie burger at a new restaurant, experiencing a new kind of patty is part of what makes burgers such a great food.

Yes, I bet meat eaters say the same about beef burgers, there is difference in texture and flavor of each patty. Difference in quality of the meat, the coarseness of the ground, etc. But knowing that, makes me thing that meat eaters don’t actually like the meat part in their diet, and trying to replicate the meat part of a beef burger when making veggie patties just seems like a lack of imagination and an unnecessary limitation.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you guys throw tariffs on food here and cut subsidies are any of you aware that for some 10% of American's having food on the table is not a given? Now I'm not saying that subsidising farmers to produce huge crops of the same 3 crops is the best way of continuing to ensure no one goes hungry, it self evidently doesn't work given the current status quo. However, to talk about making huge changes to these systems…

Aren't we talking mainly about meat subsidise and not food in general? So the consequences would be poorer people would eat less meat, while the rich continue to eat unchanged. That is the case with anything you want more expensive. The poor people would be the ones having less of it.

Thank you for pointing this out.

The moment I see any mention of price increase to curb spending is probably as naive as it is dangerous.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#597

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I don't know of any EU country in which ministers are elected as ministers. Many are elected as MPs and then appointed ministers, but this is typically not a requirement, and you can easily have unelected ministers. Even if 100% of all ministers were always elected as MPs, you couldn't just argue "was elected for position X, must therefore automatically be considered democratically legitimized for position Y".

>> Many are elected as MPs and then appointed ministers, but this is typically not a requirement, and you can easily have unelected ministers. OK, I don't know that. Is that the case in EU countries? If so, which ones? Anyway I didn't say that ministers are elected as ministers, but to my knowledge for someone to be appointed a minister they must be elected into parliament. Again, if that's not the case please explai…

> Anyway I didn't say that ministers are elected as ministers, but to my knowledge for someone to be appointed a minister they must be elected into parliament.

That might be the case in certain countries, for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_the_United_Kingdom says: "In the United Kingdom's parliamentary system, the executive is not separate from the legislature, since Cabinet members are drawn from Parliament."

It's not the case in other countries. Recent examples from Italy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monti_Cabinet and Austria: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bierlein_government. Admittedly these are interim governments formed entirely from non-politicians, so a special case. But there are also examples of individual non-party people being ministers in "normal" governments. Again Austria: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kern_government (the "Independent"s were never MPs). Of course this is rare, since usually there is an expectation of party members to get the posts.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#598

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This is such a silly subject, I wonder what I said in the above comment that started this. I can just as easily say that it is completely impossible to recreate the experience of chocolate brownie with meat. But that is not the point. I bet you only love seared medium rare centercut piece of beef tenderloin because you have learned to appreciate it. I on the other hand haven’t. The mere thought of eating beef gives b…

> I wonder what I said in the above comment that started this. You don't like meat, eating meat disgusts you, you don't understand how people can like meat, and yet you butted into this discussion with your completely unfounded opinion on whether or not other people actually like meat or not. You also seem to think that people liking cooked meat somehow means they actually don't like meat, as if liking raw meat is th…

To get back on track here:

I am trying to debunk the idea that “[p]eople eat meat because they like the taste and the texture” which you commented after a parent said that “calling plant-based things "meat" [is] a terrible idea”. To quite:

> We can have all kinds of flavors for these products, instead of "meat" flavor, not having to "live up to" the meat taste, and mouth feel. We can live up to great flavors vegetables, fruits, and herbs.

You started this debate by stating as a matter of fact that people “like the taste and the texture [of meat]”. I am trying—albeit really poorly—to say that that simply isn’t true. My choice of attack was perhaps poor, since I cannot seem to get my point across, but I chose to use that fact the people alter the both the taste and texture of meat a lot before they consume it. And for some reason people seem to think what I mean here is that they shouldn’t. As if I’m trying to invoke a No True Scotsman in favor raw meat.

> If you don't eat meat or don't like meat, then Beyond Meat and Impossible Burger are not products for you!

Sure, they are not. But I really doubt that the people who these are for like it because of the meat part. I honestly don’t know why they like it (I bet there are a million reasons), but I doubt that more than a few of these is because it reminds of meat actually. Because—as I’m trying (poorly) to convey—there is nothing inherent about the meat part they like.

I won’t be eating the Beyond or Impossible products because, honestly, they suck compared to the alternatives. Although I haven’t found anything that comes close to a good Oumph! here in America (if this is this how a meat eater feels when they can’t access meat, then I honestly don’t see the big deal here, just eat something else).

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can make a complete surf-n-turf meal for a shorter amount of time than that, on top of the fact many people hate things like lentils and cottage cheese. When discussing meat replacements, you have to not just look at cost, but what people are actually willing to eat and take time making when given any choice whatsoever (and most people will choose things that take less time and do not taste like lentils and cottage…

Many people hate surf and turf. How about we don't start a pointless discussion about individual foods when there are endless variations at all levels of preparation complexity both with and without meat?

because there isn't an unlimited combination, and despite the faux-vegan outcry you all know your options are pretty terrible as most people don't last on the diet at all.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could also just have large import tariffs on food. I’m honestly suprised the us doesn’t just have a 25%+ import tariff. Would quickly cause more domestic manufacturing. Like why do we even import garlic from China. We have plenty of domestic ability to produce.

While you guys throw tariffs on food here and cut subsidies are any of you aware that for some 10% of American's having food on the table is not a given? Now I'm not saying that subsidising farmers to produce huge crops of the same 3 crops is the best way of continuing to ensure no one goes hungry, it self evidently doesn't work given the current status quo. However, to talk about making huge changes to these systems…

That is due to extreme levels of inequality in the US and one of the stingiest welfare systems in the whole developed world. It is not due to food prices. If that was the deciding factor then Norwegians and Japanese would be starving.

A lot of the low food prices in the US also contribute to this poverty. The low prices come at the back of people in the food industry doing long days for shitty pay. If the “solution” to people not getting food on the table was to keep pushing food prices down then one easily end up in a situation arguing against minimum wage and workers rights.

One has to look at the whole system and not just a tiny sliver of it.

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