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The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

nytimes.com

111–120 of 160 posts

Re: The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

#111
My first house was a condo in a building which had been built about ~2 years before I moved in; I joined the board as the developer was transitioning out and handing over responsibility to the tenants.

This sounds exactly like what happened with us, just on a grander scale. Things like the post-tensioned concrete construction where the steel post-tensioner cables were left exposed to the elements, severe life-safety issues, electronics and machines which died far too early from being under-spec'd and improperly installed.

The developer, of course, had incorporated a new company just for the building, and it was super easy for them to let it go bankrupt. In the end we managed to recoup some costs, but had to raise everyone's fees to cover the reduced lifetime of some of the major structural elements of the building.

Re: The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Alexander's ideas and patterns are very lean processes instead. He see what's the terrain like, what's the use like, builds a bit, and reevaluates along the way. He even explicitly have drawings rendered 'for regulation' but changes it after it's built. Context: I'm assuming Alexander here refers to Christopher Alexander. He has authored books related to identifying architecture patterns with 'liveness' in th…

> I think a lot of his ideas can be applied to software too Reportedly his book A Pattern Language inspired the GoF software patterns book.

In fact Alexander's work has been more influential in software than in architecture.

Re: The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quick rundown of the advantages (I usually live in high-rises): High rises usually have spectacular shared amenities: grand pools, exercise rooms, party rooms, theaters, etc. One of mine had outdoor grilling areas that you didn't even have to clean up: the apartment had cleaning staff who would scour the grills every day. High rises usually have 24/7 door staff to sign for & lock up packages, get taxis, handle dry cl…

High rises are the closest thing we have to arcologies. Not saying that they’re close to arcologies, just that they’re the closest.

Nah.

The elevator stack in high rise buildings is predicated on almost all the trips terminating at the entrance. That is is why the NYT building has the cafeteria on the 2nd floor.

Thus a highrise is mostly a place where you live and leave or work and leave. If it had the kind of N*(N-1) scaling of interactions a city had there would be no room for apartments and offices between the shafts.

Re: The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

#114
post #40

> Initial findings showed that 73 percent of mechanical, electrical and plumbing components observed failed to conform with the developers’ drawings How is that even legal? Let alone technically possible? How does construction of these monsters work? "Yo, Bert, I need some 5x5 high-elastic steel framing for the 72th floor!" "Sorry man, we ran out of that when we 'redesigned' the elevator shaft, how about you take thi…

Buildings not exactly matching the architect's original design is so common that there's a term, "as-builts", for the set of drawings the prime contractor prepares and delivers along with the building, showing what was actually built (hence the name) and, by comparison with the originals, what was changed in the course of the build.

I'm not the right kind of engineer to hazard a guess as to whether this is an unusually high variance for this scale of project. We also don't know what "failed to conform" means - the language is as vague as, given the ubiquity of changes at build time, intentionally pejorative. There's really not enough here to judge either the architect or the contractor; it could be a brilliant design badly implemented, or it could be a terrible design the contractor did their best to make work, and no one here or in the NYT article, including its writer, has enough information to say which.

Re: The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

#115
post #40

> Initial findings showed that 73 percent of mechanical, electrical and plumbing components observed failed to conform with the developers’ drawings How is that even legal? Let alone technically possible? How does construction of these monsters work? "Yo, Bert, I need some 5x5 high-elastic steel framing for the 72th floor!" "Sorry man, we ran out of that when we 'redesigned' the elevator shaft, how about you take thi…

Your example is not that far off, I know of a building where the subcontractor’s subcontractor substituted a less elastic steel and it caused bolts to fail with the potential to drop a few 100m out of the sky and land on the public below. I don’t know the details but the subcontractor could probably only have picked up the defect by hiring a metallurgist to spot check the bolts to verify that it was the right steel they had been supplied with and I’m guessing that wasn’t done.

More generally, what often happens with big projects like this is the design team is not connected with the contractors that build the job. The reason why this happens is because early in the design stage when you speak to a main contractor you don’t get to talk to the actual subcontractors that will build the thing, you are essentially speaking to the salesmen that will eventually get their buying guys to hire subcontractors to do the actual work. If they are brought on early then Contractors typically find ways to use proprietary lock in and cost ratcheting techniques to increase the cost of a build once they have secured the job so to avoid this a fairly common setup for a building of this size is for a design team to prepare drawings and a performance specification to a level of detail that gets you regulatory compliance, but not a full nuts and bolts design with buildability assessed. This is not just the architectural design but also the structures, M&E, security, landscape etc. So, for example, the electrical design might be a block diagram and the loads, but the bus bars might not be sized and the suppliers for all the switchgear wont be selected. At pinch points there may be a more detailed reference design.

At this point there will be a design build contract made between the contractor and the client based on the partially complete design. This design gets handed over to the contractor to complete and the contractor’s engineers take over and complete the details. Sometimes some of the original design team gets novated from the client to the contractor, quite often only the architects but you have to be really sharp in your negotiations if you do this because once they have you hooked there will be huge time and cost pressure to complete the designs for less fees and to find ways to save money.

A rule of thumb I use is that on a A1 sheet’s worth of information takes about 1 person week to complete when you include all the research. Often with consultations with other specialists this work will be stretched over a couple of months. On a big project there will be 10s of thousands of drawings in play. This can’t be rushed if you don’t want any mistakes, but it almost always is and if you are an engineer or an architect working for the contractor at this point there is huge pressure to cut corners. Non-famous architects and engineers are actually not very well paid compared to other professionals and we tend to work very long unpaid hours with workers rights laws regularly flouted, e.g. firing pregnant women etc.

Another issue is that there is corruption in the buying department of the main contractor as well, they have gold watches and get taken on days out to go and ‘bet on horse racing’ by the subcontractors.

So the contractor’s incentive to cut costs and corruption cause a lot of last minute design changes to use a ‘preferred supplier’ or to reduce complexity or use cheaper materials. When coupled with the time pressure, things go wrong.

Everyone will say, ‘oh you architects should design everything properly down to the last detail, there should be PLM models like the aircraft industry’ but the fact is every building is a prototype, a building this large has a much higher margin of safety but it is as complicated as an airliner and airliners cost a lot more money to develop than buildings. No-one is willing to pay for the time input, they would rather let the contractor bodge it on site, often contractors will end up using the reference designs and filling the details themselves on site, e.g. using drawings never intended to be construction information.

Another one is ‘well then you should use more standardisation’ from personal experience in trying to make my own business more profitable, you can try to standardise construction details but there are a lot of high level client influenced design decisions that ripple right through a building down to the 1:2 construction details so this only works up to a point. I’ve managed to break my details down into reusable components, but I’ve not managed to literally reuse the same drawings for multiple projects.

As we’ve seen with the 737 Max debacle the airline industry is not immune from these kind of mistakes, I think ultimately the problem is probably more with project management and construction contracting culture than it is with ‘the Architects are hand wavy artists’ (we’re mostly not)

Re: The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

#116
The real juice here for those who want some good "conspiracy theory" level "connections everywhere" reading: CIM group. If you want to know about LA/NY real estate, political subterfuge (including PACs and pension funds), etc from the "how things really work" angle, just give them a search and read a few articles.

Even more fun: try to guess what the name stands for.

Re: The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

#117

The real juice here for those who want some good "conspiracy theory" level "connections everywhere" reading: CIM group. If you want to know about LA/NY real estate, political subterfuge (including PACs and pension funds), etc from the "how things really work" angle, just give them a search and read a few articles. Even more fun: try to guess what the name stands for.

Turns out it wasn't easy to google what the name stands for.

>The meaning of the three letters in CIM Group’s name is one of real estate’s best-kept secrets. But it might as well stand for Condos In Manhattan

https://therealdeal.com/2016/12/13/manhattans-new-skyline-ci...

Re: The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quick rundown of the advantages (I usually live in high-rises): High rises usually have spectacular shared amenities: grand pools, exercise rooms, party rooms, theaters, etc. One of mine had outdoor grilling areas that you didn't even have to clean up: the apartment had cleaning staff who would scour the grills every day. High rises usually have 24/7 door staff to sign for & lock up packages, get taxis, handle dry cl…

In the UK, high rises are cheap social housing, and rarely have any of these features. (it's possible a few nice ones were built here at there, but those are the exception - people here value houses and gardens, and nobody builds high rises with large floorspace.) C.f. the fallout from the Grenfell Tower fire. Most of our tower blocks are like that, and all the flats are currently impossible to sell because they all…

This may be (slowly?) changing:

* https://www.mansionglobal.com/articles/living-the-high-life-...

Re: The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

#119
post #40

> Initial findings showed that 73 percent of mechanical, electrical and plumbing components observed failed to conform with the developers’ drawings How is that even legal? Let alone technically possible? How does construction of these monsters work? "Yo, Bert, I need some 5x5 high-elastic steel framing for the 72th floor!" "Sorry man, we ran out of that when we 'redesigned' the elevator shaft, how about you take thi…

I am doing a restoration of an old palace in Poland, the biggest issue is often the contractors do not understand the architect’s drawings. The drawings are more for the regulators such as building control than actually for the people working on site. Talking to the constructors it is normal for architects to specify the impossible, leaving it to the constructor to actually make it up on the job. Somebody said to me…

> The drawings are more for the regulators such as building control than actually for the people working on site.

It would also depend on the architect, primary contractor, and what kind of relationship they have. Sometimes plans are just thrown over the wall, but other times there is more collaboration.

I watch the YouTube channel of Matt Risinger, a building science focused contractor in Austin, Texas, and he seems talk with architects a lot (and they supposedly make up a good portion of his viewing audience). He regularly features Steve Baczek for example, on both his main channel and the 'secondary' Build Show Network, and latter does get into the details of the building process:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwDhSCV3ixQ

> Talking to the constructors it is normal for architects to specify the impossible, leaving it to the constructor to actually make it up on the job.

Baczek shows some plan details:

* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUpkDi-QD2E

Both Risinger and Baczek subscribe to trying to achieve the 'perfect wall' on the outside:

* https://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-001-t...

Re: The Downside to Life in a Supertall Tower: Leaks, Creaks, Breaks

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High rises are the closest thing we have to arcologies. Not saying that they’re close to arcologies, just that they’re the closest.

Nah. The elevator stack in high rise buildings is predicated on almost all the trips terminating at the entrance. That is is why the NYT building has the cafeteria on the 2nd floor. Thus a highrise is mostly a place where you live and leave or work and leave. If it had the kind of N*(N-1) scaling of interactions a city had there would be no room for apartments and offices between the shafts.

I know this is the most pedantic of all comments but unless something has changed in the last few weeks, the cafeteria is on the 14th of the building. I believe 2 is bottom floor of the newsroom, which is an open mezzanine of 3 floors.

Having said that, the elevators at the NYT are a nightmare with exceptionally long wait times and very little throughput.

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