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How to lower the price of plant-based meat

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Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#561
post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the subsidies are entrenched and strongly lobbied. There is no reason at all to be wasting water on almonds or cotton in California, for an example.

The farming industry in California would be non-existent without constant subsidizing both of the crops and the extraordinarily wasteful and expensive importing of water from numerous other states to prevent the farmland that was originally desert from reverting back to it's natural state.

Importing of water from other states? Most of that is just diversion of naturally occurring water streams to where it’s needed.

“Importing” is an odd way to put it.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#562
post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any links to sources or further reading material regarding this current state of affairs? It seems not entirely obvious, nor easily checked for a casual reader. (Maybe that's part of the issue of why this is not a more popular topic yet.)

I would highly recommend 'The Meat Racket: The Secret Takeover of America's Food Business' https://smile.amazon.com/Meat-Racket-Takeover-Americas-Busin...

By that title it sounds like a very objective and unbiased source!

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#563
post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vegetarian food that isn't straight up dried commodities like beans either costs a lot of money or takes a lot of time to prepare in comparison to meat, and the working poor of this country have neither.

It takes exactly the same amount of effort to make vegetarian food as it takes to make a dish with meat, cooking some lentils with vegetables and cottage cheese takes literally twenty minutes for example. And we're currently discussing why meat substitutes are expensive and how to lower the prices.

I can make a complete surf-n-turf meal for a shorter amount of time than that, on top of the fact many people hate things like lentils and cottage cheese. When discussing meat replacements, you have to not just look at cost, but what people are actually willing to eat and take time making when given any choice whatsoever (and most people will choose things that take less time and do not taste like lentils and cottage cheese).

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#564

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> weird additives and oils in things like the Impossible Burger. Here's the ingredients list for the impossible burger: Water, textured wheat protein, coconut oil, potato protein, natural flavors, 2% or less of leghemoglobin (soy), yeast extract, salt, konjac gum, xanthan gum, soy protein isolate, vitamin E, vitamin C, thiamine (vitamin B1), zinc, niacin, vitamin B6, riboflavin (vitamin B2), and vitamin B12. The only…

Maybe if you are used to eating processed food, but as someone who almost always cooks meals from scratch, this list of ingredients doesn't look appealing. If I was buying a chicken breast, there wouldn't even be a list of ingredients. "textured wheat protein" - no idea what it, but it sounds disgusting, and very highly processed. I'd presume it also contains gluten? "potato protein" - again, it sounds like something…

Konjac is a plant that has been eaten in East Asia for thousands of years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konjac

And if you find yeast "revolting", I take it you don't like bread or beer either?

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#565
post #371
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I was raised (American) vegetarian from birth, and my parents did not consider the nutrition I needed when they cooked and I had anemia, underweight, etc. I was healthier after starting to eat meat at age 14

LOL that this personal fact was downvoted.

It shouldn't have been, because many plant-based dishes do not include the same amount of nutrients if they are cooked as opposed to consuming the raw vegetable ingredients, and people are either unaware of this entirely or completely neglect taking it into account in regards to actual nutritional value. That's before we even address nutrient bio-availability of ingredients pre-and-post preparation. You will always see tons of people crow about how many vitamins and other nutrients certain foods have, but they rarely if ever mention that with many of them you'd have to eat a dump truck full of it to even approach your daily recommended value because your body simply refuses to process much of it and passes it on as waste.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe if you are used to eating processed food, but as someone who almost always cooks meals from scratch, this list of ingredients doesn't look appealing. If I was buying a chicken breast, there wouldn't even be a list of ingredients. "textured wheat protein" - no idea what it, but it sounds disgusting, and very highly processed. I'd presume it also contains gluten? "potato protein" - again, it sounds like something…

Konjac is a plant that has been eaten in East Asia for thousands of years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konjac And if you find yeast "revolting", I take it you don't like bread or beer either?

Of course not (tho when baking bread I do find the smell of the yeast on it's own to be quite unpalatable). My point is that I don't expect to find yeast in the ingredients list for "meat", and that was simply my initial reaction.

I know it wasn't your point, but as an aside: isn't the "used" yeast slurry removed from most commercially produced beer? (depending on the style, obv)

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#567
post #30

Interestingly it doesn't even discuss the obvious solution: Let people who buy real meat pay for the externalities. (Interestingly even in places where there's some form of carbon pricing - like the EU - this often doesn't cover a large share of emissions from meat production, as methane emissions are very relevant here - I'm not aware of any methane pricing scheme anywhere.)

The externalized cost of carbon released into the atmosphere is an interesting problem in that we need to define where and when it should be paid. As an illustrated early sample of this, the burning of biomass is considered carbon neutral because all the carbon released was once absorbed by the plant when it grew.

In agricultural, we have added carbon which starts out as natural gas. It then get used to create synthetic fertilizer. The fertilizer is used to grow feed crops, which then the animals eat. The manure is then either dumped or kept for creating new bio gas or sold to organic farms that uses it as an alternative to synthetic fertilizer. The organic farms can then sell feed to more farms, but at lower and lower yields given the same input carbon from the first synthetic fertilizer, or crops that people eat.

One alternative is that each instance pay for carbon it handles, in which case we don't care if carbon is added or not. We could also tax the first instance where the carbon is introduced to the system. A different system could attempt to tax what we find to be the incentive for the system.

Personally I would tax the externalities of synthetic fertilizer because that is instance where extra carbon get added, and it solves part of the controversial issue of biomass production being labeled as carbon neutral when using fertilizer. It will also make animal feed more expensive for factory farms, while grazing animals farms in low population areas can benefit from being more ecological to the environment.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#568

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is nonsense. People elsewhere in the world pay 50% to 100% more than what Americans pay for beef. Removing some subsidies and making beef slightly more expensive would save money and people would just eat beef one day less/week.

And they'll replace their meat with what? More sugar? Bread? Sugary bread? I think you underestimate how big of a deal food is to people. I believe that any change will be towards food that's even worse for people.

For many people, those calories doesn't need to be replaced with anything.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes exactly the same amount of effort to make vegetarian food as it takes to make a dish with meat, cooking some lentils with vegetables and cottage cheese takes literally twenty minutes for example. And we're currently discussing why meat substitutes are expensive and how to lower the prices.

I can make a complete surf-n-turf meal for a shorter amount of time than that, on top of the fact many people hate things like lentils and cottage cheese. When discussing meat replacements, you have to not just look at cost, but what people are actually willing to eat and take time making when given any choice whatsoever (and most people will choose things that take less time and do not taste like lentils and cottage…

Many people hate surf and turf. How about we don't start a pointless discussion about individual foods when there are endless variations at all levels of preparation complexity both with and without meat?

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#570
post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is much closer to my standpoint then. I think it’s silly to imitate meat, when there are plenty of delicious vegetarian dishes. For example tofu dishes.

How is that different from saying: "It's silly to eat Indian food [prepared by Americans] when there are plenty delicious American dishes"? No one is forced to eat fake meat, but as vegetarian who likes burgers, how am I silly for eating fake meat burgers? I also eat tofu, vegetables, Indian, Italian, and Vietnamese food, and I think variety is a nice thing to have. Silly me.

Indian food with real, low processed ingredients is of course better than ultra processed fake meat.
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