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YC is a cult

danielharan.com

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Re: YC is a cult

#81

Post by unalone »

mattmaroon wrote: post #38
unalone wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, gotcha. I don't know. On the one hand, I feel like applying and really seeing where this idea of mine can go. On the other, I'm not certain if it's the best idea, to want to test my concepts out so early. But four years' wait right now seems like pretty awfully long.

Can you take a year off of school? I feel like a very large number of startup founders that ended up successful probably would not have seen much evidence that that would happen within two or three months.

I can, yeah. I would be completely willing to do that, too.

At the same time, I still wouldn't want to miss my first two semesters. And I don't think there's much of a loss to be had waiting an extra few months.

Re: YC is a cult

#82

Post by ZachPruckowski »

menloparkbum wrote: post #51
pc wrote: post #12

- People are put in physically or emotionally distressing situations; - Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized; - They receive unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic; [sic] - They get a new identity based on the group; - They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives, and the mainstream culture) and their access to information…

I have a family member who was one of the top 10 important people on the Human Genome Project during its heyday and am curious as to what part of that project you think fits those criteria.

I think the gentleman was generically referring to a project becoming a driving goal. People who are absolutely dedicated to something do get sucked in during the crunch time. For instance, people doing drama shows (part-time) by tech-week both actors and crew are spending 12+ hours a day on set (1), have the show's problems eclipse their other problems (2), and share a group identity (actors in play X) (4).

This isn't cult behavior, but it passes that test. The difference is that it's temporary behavior. You might work 60-80 hours a week for the first few months, and then you're back to semi-normal schedules except during crunch times. No doubt if you asked this family member, they'd have stories of these crunch times where they had to burn the midnight oil for a good bit.

Re: YC is a cult

#83

Post by yummyfajitas »

pc wrote: post #12

- People are put in physically or emotionally distressing situations; - Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized; - They receive unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic; [sic] - They get a new identity based on the group; - They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives, and the mainstream culture) and their access to information…

Graduate school is compared to a cult. In my opinion, the comparison has some merit, especially outside the sciences.

http://chronicle.com/jobs/news/2004/06/2004062801c.htm

Re: YC is a cult

#84

Post by mechanical_fish »

krschultz wrote: post #72
h34t wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think starting a company is less demanding than being a member of the Manhattan Project or Apollo teams? "Scale" is exactly the right word -- Apollo didn't happen because one person worked more insanely hard than anyone else had worked in the history of the universe. It was a large project with a lot of people (and a lot of science). Yes, a lot of them worked hard. But please, measure effort on a human sca…

Except, in Apollo people died/can die. They didn't work 18 hours a day because you make mistakes at that point. If your "web application" fails, no one really bats an eye. But if you start killing people - it is a bit different. Please don't compare these toy companies that get created, which barely have a business model much less a purpose, to one of the greatest achievements of all time just because you sit in fron…

Except, in Apollo people died/can die.

That is a rather silly criterion. All engineers build things that can kill people if they go wrong. That's what engineers do.

You think that social software can't be used to kill people? Do you know the number of people (mostly women) who are murdered each year by stalkers, most of whom are former lovers or spouses? Do you want to bet that none of those stalkers have used, say, Google to help locate their victims?

Do you think that having your identity stolen and your bank account drained can't lead directly to your death? What, do you live in a country where health insurance is guaranteed to all citizens? (Oh, wait -- perhaps you do. Never mind.)

"Toy companies"? Interesting choice of phrase. Here's what one minute's Googling found for me: A court case, Estate of Matthew C. Metzgar v. Playskool, Inc:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=3rd&#...

the plaintiffs' expert, E. Patrick McGuire, reported for the record that in one year studied, 1988, there were eleven deaths due to aspiration of small toys or toy parts by children... the plaintiffs submitted a CPSC estimate reported in the House Congressional Record that in each year from 1980-88, an average of 3,200 small children were treated in hospital emergency rooms for toy related ingestion and aspiration injuries. The CPSC also reported that between 1980 and 1991, 186 children choked on small toys, toy parts, and other children's products.

Frankly, from the viewpoint of danger and death, the space program's engineers are wimps: They do very dangerous things, but they only endanger a handful of people at a time. A toy engineer who specifies the wrong paint can kill hundreds of babies at once. Social software is pretty safe, but if the odds that a Facebook user will be killed because of a Facebook design error are as small as one per 100 million user-years [1], the company stands to lose 1 user per year, because they have 90 million active users.

[1] I have no data, but I doubt the odds are that small. I'd be astonished if Facebook hadn't already been a factor in thousands of suicides, for example. One of the reasons why humans are so incredibly talented at socializing is that it's fraught with peril.

Re: YC is a cult

#85

Post by stcredzero »

danielharan wrote: post #80
adrianwaj wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cults are defined in other ways too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult#Definition_according_to_se... "A cult is a group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control (e.g. isolation from former friends and family, debilitation, use of special methods to heighten suggestibility and subservienc…

"Unethically manipulative"!? WTF is that?

I think that a mother using reverse psychology to motivate her child to do her homework is "ethically manipulative." I think a national leader using lies to lead his country into war is unethically manipulative. I don't yet have a formula for it though.

Re: YC is a cult

#86

Post by pdubroy »

parker wrote: post #52
mattmaroon wrote: post #2

Hilarious. Blatant linkbait, but hilarious. Clearly he does not know many actual participants. Working 18 hour days for two months is not the norm.

Yeah, the 18 hour days reference was simply to imply that starting a startup is a full-time, front-of-mind undertaking. I think it's safe to say that this guy took it a bit out of context.

I think the article is a troll, but I don't think you can fault him for the way he interpreted that sentence. You said you've been working 18 hours a day, and then you implied that the only time you took off was to watch a movie now and then.

I interpreted the statement literally too.

Re: YC is a cult

#87

Post by unalone »

maximilian wrote: post #40
mattmaroon wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't really make sense with startups in general. You can't tell much after the two months or so before you have to decide on going back to school. You're lucky to just launch something by then, let alone iterate, let usage define your future, seek funding, etc. I'd be more inclined to just finish school and then do it. And it's fruit juice.

Its extremely delicious tropical fruit juice in flavors like Mango and Peach that has a heavenly mouthfeel and drinks way too fast. "Fruit juice" alludes to like welches or something similar.

Wow. This Y Combinator thing suddenly seems even more tempting.

Re: YC is a cult

#88

Post by danielharan »

pg wrote: post #74

Actually there's a fundamental incompatibility between cults and startups. Cult followers tend to be people who want someone to tell them what to do. There are a lot of people like that, but they're the opposite of the kind of people who make good startup founders. What you want in a startup founder is the sort of tenacious independent mindedness that makes you start a new search engine in 1998, when everyone else th…

So, what's up with these insane hours?

You've written about the need for working long hours, but aren't Michael Parkatti and Mike Marrone taking it a bit too far?

Re: YC is a cult

#89

Post by krschultz »

mechanical_fish wrote: post #84
krschultz wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except, in Apollo people died/can die. They didn't work 18 hours a day because you make mistakes at that point. If your "web application" fails, no one really bats an eye. But if you start killing people - it is a bit different. Please don't compare these toy companies that get created, which barely have a business model much less a purpose, to one of the greatest achievements of all time just because you sit in fron…

Except, in Apollo people died/can die. That is a rather silly criterion. All engineers build things that can kill people if they go wrong. That's what engineers do. You think that social software can't be used to kill people? Do you know the number of people (mostly women) who are murdered each year by stalkers, most of whom are former lovers or spouses? Do you want to bet that none of those stalkers have used, say,…

Apollo engineers make a design mistake, it kills people. If you don't like that because it doesn't effect enough people (Sorry I didn't realize that since Facebook serves 100 million people it is more of a feat than going to the moon) lets talk about Boeing. Boeing makes a design mistake, hundreds of people die. That has happened and will continue to happen.

Now you compare that to Facebook - if Facebook or Google goes down, who dies?

And this whole stalker point - wtf does that have to do with anything. Do you think there where no stalkers before the internet? The fact that people misuse something doesn't make it the engineers fault. If I designed kitchen knives and it is used to kill someone is it my fault? Hell no. But if I design a hatch door that doesn't open because of a design flaw, and people die, that is my fault.

That responsibility is the difference.

Re: YC is a cult

#90

Post by adrianwaj »

pg wrote: post #74

Actually there's a fundamental incompatibility between cults and startups. Cult followers tend to be people who want someone to tell them what to do. There are a lot of people like that, but they're the opposite of the kind of people who make good startup founders. What you want in a startup founder is the sort of tenacious independent mindedness that makes you start a new search engine in 1998, when everyone else th…

"tenacious independent mindedness that makes you start a new search engine in 1998"

or even 2008, ie Cuill. I suppose it's all about feeling you can do something better and believing in yourself enough to prove the doubters and incumbents wrong, at the same time attracting like-minded folks into the fold.

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