How to lower the price of plant-based meat • Hacker News Board

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#471

Post by hy3898 » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 6:19 AM UTC

Jkvngt wrote: post #157

I know it's maybe not a very sophisticated position to take in the current year, but I will not eat the fake meat, I will not eat the bugs, I will not live in a pod, I will not own nothing.

I doubt the venture capitalists and financiers backing those companies want to eat this kind of gruel either. It's peasant food.

They'll keep eating BBQ wagyu beef, don't worry. But if that's indeed the future they want for us, in the words of Tucker Carlson (PBUH), "I am totally happy to set your system on fire and blow it up".

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#472

Post by GoOnThenDoTell » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 6:34 AM UTC

bushbaba wrote: post #468

ascar wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a reasonable argument that government subsidies for farmers reduce prices for the consumer, but I don't think it's necessarily a correct assumption. Subsidies help the local farmers to compete with farmers in low cost countries. Transportation costs are usually insignificant. So without subsidies the consumer might pay the same price, but the store just ends up sourcing the product from a different country. Howe…

You could also just have large import tariffs on food. I’m honestly suprised the us doesn’t just have a 25%+ import tariff. Would quickly cause more domestic manufacturing. Like why do we even import garlic from China. We have plenty of domestic ability to produce.

I think the game is that you also want to convince countries to not do that to US exports

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#473

Post by Layke1123 » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 6:36 AM UTC

drewg123 wrote: post #50

Layke1123 wrote: post #9

Combining a few points into one since they are related, but plant-based meat is a misnomer. Plant-based protein, or meat-substitute are better terms and meat should not have it's definition muddied. Lab grown meat from cultured cells, however, fair game. Trying to force companies to call it anything other than meat would be intentionally seeking to stifle innovation.

That ship has sailed a long time ago with dairy products. Just look at all the nut-based "milks" and "cheeses" and "yogurts".

Evidence of one?

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#474

Post by bsdz » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 6:43 AM UTC

pinot wrote: post #381

bsdz wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK a popular plant based "meat" is Quorn. I believe that is grown by an organism that is fed glucose. The glucose is predigested maize starch. So perhaps not a single organism but two to make it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusarium_venenatum

You still need a nitrogen source. They are using the glucose energy to turn nitrogen (ammonia in this case) into protein.

I'm not sure I agree with your wording, ie use "glucose energy to turn nitrogen into protein". Proteins are made up of amino acids which are made from carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen atoms. The glucose not only provides energy to the process but also carbon, oxygen and nitrogen. In fact, this is a very common process in plants.

Note: The comment I originally responded to appears to have changed their wording from "living organism" to animal. Although curiously this might not be correct either. For example, humans synthesize some “nonessential amino acids” from glucose (eg glucose → pyruvate → alanine). It's possible similar amino acid pathways can be combined into a protein completely synthesized by the human body. It also seems very likely that this happens in other animals.

https://www.quora.com/Can-the-human-body-turn-excess-glucose...

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#475

Post by runarberg » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 6:52 AM UTC

tengbretson wrote: post #410

wyre wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I would love to see subsidies ended on animal products, it couldn’t happen overnight without huge backlash. Lowering the subsidies over time and eliminating the power that the animal agriculture industry has over politics would do a lot to increase the number of plant-based eaters.

So with your plan, if I get rid of the cows in my pasture and a bunch of deer move in to graze it instead do I still get taxed for their farts too?

What!? By this logic would we then give subsidies to the land where a pack of coyotes prays on the deer? This is just silly. Wild deer should be close to carbon neutral in a healthy ecosystem, as it gets prayed on as much as it pastures. Don’t be silly.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#476

Post by asutekku » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 6:56 AM UTC

Baeocystin wrote: post #406

foerbert wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you and OP are talking about different things. For most products, and virtually all that aren't particularly modern, they suffer from being set up as direct replacements for meat. Take fake deli meats, for example. There are options that make a good sandwich. But they don't make a good $specific-meat sandwich. If they found a way to position themselves more in the vein of ham vs turkey vs plant-based sandwich…

I agree with you. I know more than one person who would turn up their nose at a 'veggie meat' sandwich, but would happily tuck in to a falafel wrap. Marketing matters!

Yes, but those people are usually already vegetarians. ”Fake meat” is meant for people who still do it meat, not for someone who has completely banished it from their lives.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#477

Post by jamil7 » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 6:58 AM UTC

Aerroon wrote: post #275

markdown wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is nonsense. People elsewhere in the world pay 50% to 100% more than what Americans pay for beef. Removing some subsidies and making beef slightly more expensive would save money and people would just eat beef one day less/week.

And they'll replace their meat with what? More sugar? Bread? Sugary bread? I think you underestimate how big of a deal food is to people. I believe that any change will be towards food that's even worse for people.

Why would people replace meat with sugar?

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#478

Post by asutekku » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 7:01 AM UTC

runarberg wrote: post #403

jfim wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AFAIK people usually don’t like the flavor nor texture of meat. If that was the case, you would see more people boiling the meat and not spice it. If that was true, steaks would not be a thing. A good steak has some coarse salt and pepper for seasoning, but not much else. Boiling meat is pretty much the worst way to prepare any cut of meat, and will ensure that it has a tough and unpleasant texture, strip all of th…

You are just reiterating my point exactly. People like to alter the taste and texture of the food we eat. We do it with our plant based food, and —to a much greater extent—we do it to our meat based food. Also, salt is a very powerful spice.

Even if you only count the taste of a spiced meat, it’s still something you can’t get with vegetarian food. The taste and texture of meat, spiced or not, is something you can’t (so far) achieve with plant-based alternatives.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#479

Post by Qwertious » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 7:02 AM UTC

nemo44x wrote: post #212

danShumway wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's not necessarily bad, but if we're going to be messing with the market anyway we could choose to subsidize other things. I'm saying we shouldn't pretend that meat is as cheap as it is on its own. We should acknowledge what the reality is: meat is cheap because as a society, we choose to use tax dollars to make it cheap. We could do the exact same thing with plant-based meat. We could shift some of those subsi…

I just think it’s politically a non-starter. They tried to tax sugary drinks in the most liberal city in America and heads exploded.

>I just think it’s politically a non-starter.

That's a separate issue to whether we should value a free market. Or is it? If we're only going to support a "free market" in spots where it's politically convenient, but be enthusiastic about stripping any regulations that are politically viable, then what we'll see is a systemic stripping of regulations that protect people without power, without touching regulations of people with power.

This ends in disaster.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#480

Post by Qwertious » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 7:15 AM UTC

Gustomaximus wrote: post #240

m463 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I wonder if a meat-based production system is a hedge against catastrophic/extinction events. For example, let's say we have another potato-famine style event. Even a bio-engineered attack that takes out a crop or crops. We could scale back meat production and use the crop capacity we use to support the "meat pyramid" to feed people directly until the crisis has passed. Subsidizing crop capacity might make…

Government encouraging overproduction of food makes absolute sense. It's this or to store backup because to run food production at an efficient "only as much as I needed" models a disaster waiting to happen. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines

Historically, governments would operate grains silos and be an intermediate purchaser, to control the cost of grain - keep it slightly higher in good years, and keep it stable in bad years by dipping into reserves.

IIRC a lot of countries were forced to abolish these price controls by the WTO, and then were screwed over when they got a bad harvest and poor people had no food.