Ford Makes $29B Commitment to Electric and Self-Driving Cars • Hacker News Board

Re: Ford Makes $29B Commitment to Electric and Self-Driving Cars

#31

Post by justapassenger » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 5:15 AM UTC

nickik wrote: post #29

cookiengineer wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This so much sounds like all the PR stunt cars that renault put out. You literally have to lease a battery on top of the absurd prices, and you cannot get it changed for free, even when you lease it. Which makes all their cars basically useless after a year of usage, because the batteries are embedded in their chassis. Every time I compare European manufacturers to Tesla and Nissan, they are such a bad joke. Nissan h…

What are you even talking about. Nissan sales have collapsed, the Leaf went from one of the most sold cars to small program and is being discontinued in many places. Nissan has the Ariya coming out but not much beyond, their announced targets for electrification are embracingly bad compared to basically every other auto-maker. VWG and Renault are outselling Nissan by 2-3x in terms of BEV. And you don't have to lease…

Tesla’s are famous for not being repairable by 3rd party shops. You lack documentation, software, getting parts is PITA, and Tesla will happily disable features in your car, if you repaired it in a way they don’t agree with (like disabling supercharging on salvaged cars).

Re: Ford Makes $29B Commitment to Electric and Self-Driving Cars

#32

Post by Ralo » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 5:16 AM UTC

I've been a car guy since my teens, and have nearly everyone around me be some sort of mechanic but I've wondered a couple things about why electric vehicles will have mass appeal.

Most electric vehicles seem to have their value based in the battery pack, but these batteries packs have a life span of 10~ years, right? Do these vehicles have zero value after ten years (assuming the batteries are bad then), high mileage or not?

I managed to save thousands of dollars in high school/university just driving a beater and fixing it as stuff broke, but an electric vehicle isn't something that can be casually repaired right? Even if in 20-30 years when parts are cheap and plentiful, you need to be a skilled engineer (or at least highly trained) to do these repairs right?

When the world is swapped to electric vehicles, can our grid handle that? and if so, why wouldn't our local governments be increasing our electric bills? I cannot see how it would be cheaper than gas, sure some charging stations are free now because it niche, but it wont be in the future.

I'm not against electric vehicles, but I just see this hurting low-income people.

Re: Ford Makes $29B Commitment to Electric and Self-Driving Cars

#33

Post by pmorici » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 5:17 AM UTC

Sherl wrote: post #26

I wish auto manufacturers focused on extending EV range then FSD. the buzz so much but nobody is bothered about bringing extended range to masses. People who want entry level ev can't sit for 40 minutes every week at a supercharger.

Aptera seems like it could be pretty interesting in this regard.

Re: Ford Makes $29B Commitment to Electric and Self-Driving Cars

#34

Post by nickik » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 5:18 AM UTC

alphabettsy wrote: post #24

reissbaker wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright, so then $43k to compete, given typical Elon Musk numbers. Still a hard bar!

Not sure how you figure. The one that will actually be available at launch and I’m guessing most people will buy, with AWD, is $50k.

This is a terrible argument. Of any car most people don't buy the base version. People wont buy the base version of an F-150 either.

And just because Tesla once didn't offer a car with the price they said doesn't mean its some inherent law of nature. Tesla now is a very different company compared to 2017 when they built their first mass manufactured car.

Fact is that Electric F-150 will not be able to compete with the Cybertruck on specs. Tesla will bring its now batteries and new packs and will reach range and performance that F-150 can't match.

Re: Ford Makes $29B Commitment to Electric and Self-Driving Cars

#35

Post by gbear605 » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 5:19 AM UTC

cookiengineer wrote: post #22

SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are more right than wrong in your prediction, but “over the next two years” seems so incredibly optimistic that I’m inclined to call it naïveté instead.

Lots of European countries joined the law that makes fossil fuel burning engines obsolete starting 2030. So he might be right when he says the next two years, because in 5 years it will have been too late already :)

Unless I’m mistaken, that law is for new cars being sold, not existing cars, which just means that they need to have transitioned by then. Obviously it can’t be left to the last minute, but it also doesn’t have to be the next two years (at least for those specific legal issues).

Re: Ford Makes $29B Commitment to Electric and Self-Driving Cars

#36

Post by ogre_codes » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 5:19 AM UTC

SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #16

InTheArena wrote: post #3

The patterns only going to become more pronounced from here on out. My guess is that we’re going to See a electric bulbs style phase out of gasoline engines announced over the next two years. If I’m Ford or GM I’m gonna try and get my hands on some of that sweet sweet tesla speculation cash in the form of a buy out as quickly as possible. Solves the technology platform problems too. If VW couldn’t handle it, why do y…

I think you are more right than wrong in your prediction, but “over the next two years” seems so incredibly optimistic that I’m inclined to call it naïveté instead.

Within 4 years, Tesla is going to be selling EVs for $25k. The Cybertruck is 18-24 months out. Rivian is going to be launching their electric truck in the next 18 months as well. That puts Ford's front line vehicle squarely in the headlights.

If Ford can't mass produce EVs at a reasonable price in the next 2 years, things are going get increasingly ugly for them. Not end of line in 2 years, but it's just going to get harder to catch up as Tesla and the rest ramp up manufacturing capacity and capture the market.

The big problem for Ford/ GM/ Dodge, and all the rest of the latecomers is sourcing batteries. Tesla has spent most of the past 10 years building up capacity and looking in supply while the rest of the auto-makers need to outsource supply in an increasingly competitive market.

Re: Ford Makes $29B Commitment to Electric and Self-Driving Cars

#37

Post by Hypx » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 5:20 AM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #8

seibelj wrote: post #4

EVs make sense but at this point self driving cars are fantasy vaporware. Executives should be tired of embarrassing themselves in public with grand pronouncements of “just 6 more months!” by this point.

Fantasy vaporware that I still routinely see driving past my house.

If you mean a car without a driver and outside of a geofenced area, you definitely have not seen one before.

Re: Ford Makes $29B Commitment to Electric and Self-Driving Cars

#38

Post by ogre_codes » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 5:22 AM UTC

Sherl wrote: post #26

I wish auto manufacturers focused on extending EV range then FSD. the buzz so much but nobody is bothered about bringing extended range to masses. People who want entry level ev can't sit for 40 minutes every week at a supercharger.

Tesla's base Model 3 has solid range. Maybe that's not "entry level", they are working on a lower priced car too.

Regardless, few people with electric cars are waiting 40 minutes every week. Most charge at home and only hit charging on long trips.

Re: Ford Makes $29B Commitment to Electric and Self-Driving Cars

#39

Post by brianpan » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 5:22 AM UTC

seibelj wrote: post #4

EVs make sense but at this point self driving cars are fantasy vaporware. Executives should be tired of embarrassing themselves in public with grand pronouncements of “just 6 more months!” by this point.

Maybe for Tesla (I own one), but this is pretty convincing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAZ6tJSj9T4

Re: Ford Makes $29B Commitment to Electric and Self-Driving Cars

#40

Post by aerovistae » Sun, Feb 07, 2021, 5:22 AM UTC

Ralo wrote: post #32

I've been a car guy since my teens, and have nearly everyone around me be some sort of mechanic but I've wondered a couple things about why electric vehicles will have mass appeal. Most electric vehicles seem to have their value based in the battery pack, but these batteries packs have a life span of 10~ years, right? Do these vehicles have zero value after ten years (assuming the batteries are bad then), high mileag…

That far into the future cars will most likely be autonomous. there isn't really any point to speculating that far out, who knows what could happen. Look at 2020....