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How to lower the price of plant-based meat

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Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#451

Post by runarberg »

henrikschroder wrote: post #445
runarberg wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, sorry I must not have made my point clear enough (this is what I get for trying to be snarky): GP is saying that people like the taste and texture of meat. I’m saying that they only do after they have altered the taste and the texture of if. My point is that there is nothing inherent about meat that people like. This is relevant to OP as the above claim is that there is no need to replicate the texture and taste…

> GP is saying that people like the taste and texture of meat. Why are you interpreting what I wrote as if I claimed that people like the taste and texture of *raw* meat? That's probably the most uncharitable possible interpretation of my argument. Stop being ridiculous. > there is no need to replicate the texture and taste of meat as you have infinitely many ways to structure the taste and structure of plant based f…

> Why are you interpreting what I wrote as if I claimed that people like the taste and texture of raw meat? That's probably the most uncharitable possible interpretation of my argument. Stop being ridiculous.

Sorry, you—and GPs—are putting words in my mouth. I never stated such a thing. People think they like meat, but they don’t. They only like meat after the taste and texture has been altered. Even then they probably mostly like it from force of habit.

> When it comes to actual beef, there's absolutely nothing like it yet, in neither taste nor texture, and texture is the part that is hardest to get right

This is actually the point of the debate, and it is highly opinionated so I don’t think we can see each others point of view here. But in Europe there is a trademark soy based alternative called Oumph! which is not trying to replicate meat in any way, but it is simply delicious. In my opinion the impossible meat we have here in America is simply disgusting next to it. There are so many ways to make good food with plant based food and trying to mimic one type of food that people only like after it has been prepared and spiced, just seems a little short sighted.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#452

Post by atweiden »

tomp wrote: post #363
henrikschroder wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...unlike the animal industry which is just full of fluffy, happy, loved cows who proudly line themselves up to be turned into tasty beef for your pleasure... Have you seen the animal industry? It's absolutely disgusting. Getting rid of that would be an enormous net win, both ethical and environmental.

I can buy organic, grass-fed, no-GMO, sustainably pasture-raised beef. Can I buy a higher-quality vurger? AFAIK not (right now).

> I can buy organic, grass-fed, no-GMO, sustainably pasture-raised beef.

No, actually you probably can't [1]:

> Is there such a thing as a climatically-guilt-free steak? Are grazing livestock climate villains or climate saviours? A new report by an international research collaboration led by the Food Climate Research Network (FCRN), part of the Oxford Martin Programme on the Future of Food, provides an authoritative answer to these questions.

> The new report Grazed and confused? helps add clarity to the debate around livestock farming and meat and dairy consumption.

> 14.5% of all human made greenhouse gas emissions come from the livestock sector as a whole. There is however some confusion and disagreement in the debate about the climate impacts of grazing livestock (and particularly grass-fed beef).

> Some commentators have argued that well-managed grazing can remove carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and sequester it in soils, and that these removals can substantially compensate for, or even exceed, all other emissions from the livestock that are doing the grazing. In this way, grass-fed beef has been offered by some as a climate solution, rather than a problem.

> Written by FCRN’s Dr Tara Garnett in collaboration with Cécile Godde of CSIRO and a team of international experts, this report dissects claims made by different stakeholders in the debate, and evaluates them against the best available science. This report finds that better management of grass-fed livestock do not hold a solution to climate change as only under very specific conditions can they help sequester carbon. This sequestering of carbon is even then small, time-limited, reversible and substantially outweighed by the greenhouse gas emissions these grazing animals generate. Dr Garnett explains the key takeaways from this report:

> “This report concludes that grass-fed livestock are not a climate solution. Grazing livestock are net contributors to the climate problem, as are all livestock. Rising animal production and consumption, whatever the farming system and animal type, is causing damaging greenhouse gas release and contributing to changes in land use. Ultimately, if high consuming individuals and countries want to do something positive for the climate, maintaining their current consumption levels but simply switching to grass-fed beef is not a solution. Eating less meat, of all types, is.”

[1]: https://www.oxfordmartin.ox.ac.uk/news/2017-news-grazed-and-...

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#453

Post by atweiden »

tomp wrote: post #366
hannob wrote: post #30

Interestingly it doesn't even discuss the obvious solution: Let people who buy real meat pay for the externalities. (Interestingly even in places where there's some form of carbon pricing - like the EU - this often doesn't cover a large share of emissions from meat production, as methane emissions are very relevant here - I'm not aware of any methane pricing scheme anywhere.)

I fully support this. I think it would result in a lot of good innovation - e.g. ways to raise meat while reducing carbon (including methane) emissions. But ONLY if externalities are also fully priced & included for all other products - cars, plastic crap shipped from China, aircon, ... otherwise that kind of legislation is simply discrimination against meat-lovers.

> But ONLY if externalities are also fully priced & included for all other products - cars, plastic crap shipped from China, aircon, ... otherwise that kind of legislation is simply discrimination against meat-lovers.

Meat has a victim [1]. Respectably, how would you price in the cost of death?

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#454

Post by futuretaint »

eyelidlessness wrote: post #413
Badfood wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meat has a better track record huh? Basically all cardiovascular diseases are caused by animal products. Those 'odd ingredients' don't seem so odd to me. Go through the list of a meat alternative one by one, you'll be surprised how mundane they are

Please recognize that the caution around new food science advances is based in experience. I’m sure most of us are old enough to remember when most crunchy fried snacks were on the shelf with oils that had no known health risk but turned out to produce widespread uncontrollable diarrhea because the oils were indigestible. I’m not suggesting these new meat substitutes have that effect but it’s reasonable for people to…

people should be cautious and imho more importantly, people should be informed and adding processed soy, oils, sodium etc to meat alternatives in hope of reducing price is a horrible solution. If that's the only way we're going to get people offsetting meat consumption its a sad state of affair.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#455

Post by atweiden »

scottLobster wrote: post #237
hunter-gatherer wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People eat meat because they like the taste and the texture, but at the same time everyone knows that meat is produced by killing animals, and that it's much less sustainable than vegetarian food. I think this is too generous. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the implicit message here is that people actually care about the animals and sustainability of meat farming. My spouse is vegetarian and I'm whatever. I don't…

As an avid meat-eater (because nature almost by definition is living things eating other living things and humans evolved to be omnivorous for various nutritional reasons), my answer to the animal cruelty argument is just to buy the top-shelf, pasture-raised meats. It's better for my health and much better for the animals. Obviously I have no control over where restaurants source their food from, but I try to prefere…

> my answer to the animal cruelty argument is just to buy the top-shelf, pasture-raised meats. It's better for my health and much better for the animals.

No it isn't. [1]

It really isn't. [2]

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtnlwqEii2I

[2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQRAfJyEsko

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#456

Post by gbear605 »

tengbretson wrote: post #410
wyre wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as I would love to see subsidies ended on animal products, it couldn’t happen overnight without huge backlash. Lowering the subsidies over time and eliminating the power that the animal agriculture industry has over politics would do a lot to increase the number of plant-based eaters.

So with your plan, if I get rid of the cows in my pasture and a bunch of deer move in to graze it instead do I still get taxed for their farts too?

Of course not. Unless you’re raising a deer herd, and claiming ownership over them, in which case sure.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#457

Post by gbear605 »

krapht wrote: post #343
Gustomaximus wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government encouraging overproduction of food makes absolute sense. It's this or to store backup because to run food production at an efficient "only as much as I needed" models a disaster waiting to happen. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines

That's an interesting question: how much would it cost to keep 3 years of food (let's assume the bare minimum - refined white flour) in reserve for the entire United States? What is the cost of food subsidies over the same period?

There’s some issue with storage - long term storage of food leads to the nutrients decaying.

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#459

Post by shaklee3 »

shagie wrote: post #344
tashoecraft wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. So many non vegetarian/vegan people say stuff like this and it’s just wrong. Or they’ll say “why have a fake burger, can’t you just enjoy vegetarian food, why does it have to be a burger? If you want burger just eat one and stop trying to copy meat, innovate on your own”. It’s just people completely missing the point. If you get fake meat close enough in taste/texture/price you’ll move a large amount of produ…

I enjoy eating meat... the texture, the savory nature of its flavor. Back when I lived in the bay, my brother and I found a vegan restaurant - Golden Era. He had taken me to other vegetarian restaurants and they always felt lacking for something . Golden Era... the 'chicken' drumsticks - ok, they were on a wooden stick, but the texture of whatever it was was right . Then Mongolian 'chicken' had a texture to it too an…

Same with veggie grill in southern california

Re: How to lower the price of plant-based meat

#460

Post by Dylan16807 »

f430 wrote: post #421
Dylan16807 wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> explain. There is no animal cruelty in its production, so that solves the problem of "making this kind of thing is cruel to animals". To be more specific, I mean the whole scenario of people buying it "as meat" removes all animal cruelty from their meat-motivated food purchases. Not that the product will stop people from kicking puppies somehow. > do you realize the paradox of this sentence? No, what is it? I said…

explain how killing plants is the solution to the subsidized bovine industry's continued production of meats

The former replaces the latter 1:1.

That's a solution on the product level. It's not a solution on the systemic level, but that's not what I meant.

It's at the same level as "cut your intake 50%", but more effective.

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