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Complexity Explained

complexityexplained.github.io

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Re: Complexity Explained

#41

Post by beaconstudios »

robbmorganf wrote: post #19

How does complexity theory benefit real people? Unlike theories of physics or economics, it doesn't appear to describe how anything actually works , rather that things are just more complex than they seem. For instance, complexity theory just points out that the double pendulum is hard to predict without adding value, while controls theory was more useful by stabilizing the double pendulum. So what are some real-worl…

There's a distinction to be made between chaotic and complex systems. You cannot model chaotic systems at their chaotic level of abstraction (higher levels may form more predictable behaviour, eg. The weather patterns). Complex systems cannot be predicted with certainty but you can interact with and model them. Consider the human body - it's impossible to know the total state of the body and predict exactly what will happen next, but we can model different states of the body and understand what interventions can counteract undesired states. Of course the specific fields for working with the body have made many discoveries long before systems science existed, but in the same way that the scientific method provides tools for understanding linear causalities across fields, systems science provides tools for understanding nonlinear causality across fields.

Re: Complexity Explained

#42

Post by beaconstudios »

ReactiveJelly wrote: post #38
beaconstudios wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the reality of bottom up organisation, and is basically a completely different metaphysics to the current Western modernist one. Going further down this path of thought will lead you to ideas like constructivism, teleology, and non-dualism - all ideas that have long philosophical histories but are currently out of vogue.

It would be nice if someone could untie them from religion, make them simpler to understand, and bring them back into vogue, if they're so useful.

There are a few of us out there trying to do exactly that, including the above article.

Re: Complexity Explained

#43

Post by goodmachine »

Complexity theory is interesting and useful.

However, because it's approximately descriptive, rather than accurately predictive, the field is haunted by quantum woo merchants, grand metaphysical unifiers, quasi-ecological musings and Buddha-lite pantheism. Which is neither interesting nor useful, except perhaps as a sociological phenomenon. Discuss.

Re: Complexity Explained

#44

Post by cabalamat »

dredmorbius wrote: post #9
ColinWright wrote: post #2

I got three slides in and the "Swooshing!" was driving me nuts. I'm sure the content is fine, and the presentation is simply gorgeous . For me ... unusable. Edit: In the end, at the end, I found the PDF. It seems a little light on content, but I guess I'm not the audience. Not sure who the audience would be, though.

Disabling JS helps. PDF: https://complexityexplained.github.io/ComplexityExplained.pd... (Multiple languages available.)

Having read the pdf, I was underwhelmed. There doesn't appear to be any meat here, merely restatements of the obvious.

Re: Complexity Explained

#45

Post by trenchgun »

cabalamat wrote: post #44
dredmorbius wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disabling JS helps. PDF: https://complexityexplained.github.io/ComplexityExplained.pd... (Multiple languages available.)

Having read the pdf, I was underwhelmed. There doesn't appear to be any meat here, merely restatements of the obvious.

Maybe this could be more useful for you?

"An Introduction to Complex Systems Science and Its Applications" https://www.hindawi.com/journals/complexity/2020/6105872/

Re: Complexity Explained

#46

Post by trenchgun »

goodmachine wrote: post #43

Complexity theory is interesting and useful. However, because it's approximately descriptive, rather than accurately predictive, the field is haunted by quantum woo merchants, grand metaphysical unifiers, quasi-ecological musings and Buddha-lite pantheism. Which is neither interesting nor useful, except perhaps as a sociological phenomenon. Discuss.

Nothing to discuss for me.

Agreed to both points.

Re: Complexity Explained

#47

Post by jananas »

robbmorganf wrote: post #29
jananas wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I second that. I see it as something to build intuition for "complex" problems. To make this more concrete: If you want to study the brain you can go the "biology" approach and describe neurons really well and build mathematical models for all the neuron types. Or you could do it the other way around with the "psychology" approach and put people/monkey/rats in an MRT. Both ways you learn important stuff but it will b…

Could you elaborate on the power grid idea? It seems like a good example of how to apply complexity theory to make hard decisions, in this case optimal investments in grid stabilization.

That's not really my strong side...

But a quick search brought this paper to the light which might serve as a starting point: https://res.mdpi.com/d_attachment/energies/energies-11-01381...

For example they report on a project where they used photovoltaic panels to stabilize changing power consumption in a power grids with minimal changes in the existing structure - something that is hard with traditional power plants since they basically have to much momentum for quick switching action. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7007647

Also, agent based simulations (building on the idea of self organized criticality) are a thing. With these setups you can test power grids on their reaction for certain failure types - something you don't want to test in real life. I assume these simulations would also be quite accurate since consumption and production should be well known, as well as the physical properties of transmission.

Re: Complexity Explained

#48

Post by Smaug123 »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #31
hliyan wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was just trying to understand what people mean when they say that "consciousness is an emergent property", which always felt like a hand-wavy explanation. I was weighing that explanation against panpsychism and then this thought emerged.

I'm wondering which sort of consciousness is under scrutiny. We know when we're conscious and unconscious. E.g. Awake vs Asleep. Even animals exhibit that dichotomy. The other consciousness is self-awareness. Which is hard to detect from the outside. Some animals may have it. Do they understand when they look silly? Do they recognize themselves in a mirror? These may be diagnostic. It's important to know which one is…

> We know when we're conscious and unconscious.

I claim that this is not true as stated. The main bulk of the habit-forming nearly everyone needs to do when learning to lucid dream is to recognise when you're dreaming, because almost nobody natively knows when they're dreaming. You have to learn to spot it by paying attention to the things which the dream machinery is very bad at (like text, clocks, and your own breathing).

Re: Complexity Explained

#49

Post by JoeAltmaier »

Smaug123 wrote: post #48
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm wondering which sort of consciousness is under scrutiny. We know when we're conscious and unconscious. E.g. Awake vs Asleep. Even animals exhibit that dichotomy. The other consciousness is self-awareness. Which is hard to detect from the outside. Some animals may have it. Do they understand when they look silly? Do they recognize themselves in a mirror? These may be diagnostic. It's important to know which one is…

> We know when we're conscious and unconscious. I claim that this is not true as stated. The main bulk of the habit-forming nearly everyone needs to do when learning to lucid dream is to recognise when you're dreaming, because almost nobody natively knows when they're dreaming. You have to learn to spot it by paying attention to the things which the dream machinery is very bad at (like text, clocks, and your own brea…

Sorry, I meant 'we' as an observer. Should have said "its clear from observation " perhaps.

Anyway good point.

Re: Complexity Explained

#50

Post by aogaili »

Have you ever faced a problem or system so complex, that you tried to understand and gave up in frustration? Do you think there are systems out there completely beyond humanity grasp? that we won't even have an entry point to reason about them?
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