381–390 of 515 posts
Actions have consequences.
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Do you think Ahmadiyya Muslims in Pakistan want Apple and the Pakistani government to forbid them from installing the software they like? Do you think they feel safe because of this? It is common for totalitarian systems to cite user/citizen safety to justify themselves. I encourage you to see past this bullshit.
I am talking about my own telephone, also from Apple.
Pakistan's laws are clearly wrong, but Apple and Google do not and should not have the authority to bypass any country's laws.
They do every day when it's in their interest...
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> They left to practice their religion in a place where they wouldn't be burned as a heretic. Not true, at least in the obvious case of the Pilgrims of Plymouth. They were perfectly free to practice their religion when they lived in the Netherlands. They moved away because they wanted to create their own strict theocratic colony. The Netherlands, in their eyes, had too much religious freedom.
Even that specific example is a bit of a gray area imo. They were persecuted in England and tried to live in the Netherlands but found life hard to adjust and were also wanting to keep their English identity. So, it is more of persecution by the Church of England that pushed them away. The Netherlands do get a point here for tolerance imo.
> "For the Puritans, the “Lord’s Kingdom” did not include Quakers, and the Rev. Norton is known as the chief instigator of the persecution of Quakers in New England. He is quoted as saying, “I would carry fire in one hand and faggots in the other, to burn all the Quakers in the world.” The punishment for a Quaker to set foot in Massachusetts in 1660 was death by hanging."[1]
> "From Puritan Boston’s earliest days, Catholics (“Papists”) were anathema and were banned from the colonies, along with other non-Puritans. Four Quakers were hanged in Boston between 1659 and 1661 for persistently returning to the city to stand up for their beliefs."[2]
[1] https://historicipswich.org/2015/10/13/persecution-of-quaker...
[2] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/americas-true-history...
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french secularism is beautiful. all are equal under law. and freedom FROM religion. if your friend and his friends had this thing where they chopped of skin from their babies genitals. would you be ok with that? why is it ok when religious people do it? clearly following dogma in this case over reason is the symptom of mental illness or damage. religions are much more oppressive if you ask me. they function without a…
> french secularism is beautiful. As an indian, I have to somewhat disagree. I find the idea of secularism beautiful and necessary for a democracy but the french way of implementing it uncomfortable and some what extremist (but understand their historic roots). Secularism in India is certainly inspired by US and European democracy (especially France), but is not similar: The Court also discussed the concept of "India…
The "Indian Secularism" is mostly what was leftover from the colonial era mixed with Traditional Hindu values.
However, the Govt tries to "correct" or "change" the Native traditions periodically.
For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…
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Their customers live in a country without religious freedom. Do you think Apple has the power to change that? If they don’t do business there their customers are objectively worse off. Not only do they not have religious freedom, but they also don’t have access to technology. That seems wrong to me. I wonder what people in Pakistan would say? Would most of them really want these companies to leave?
Also, let’s take it even further. How about the right to vote? Would it ok to do business in a country where women don’t have the right to vote? How about apartheid? How about slavery? How about genocide? Where is your line and on what basis would you make it? Do you even have a line?
Despite being asked, you haven’t actually explained how they can do this.
Also, I ask again: do the people of Pakistan want Apple to abandon their customers in Pakistan?
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> You can't reasonably expect a government to welcome a business into their country But the country already allows "unlocked" PCs to be sold in the country. It is already allowing people to purchase devices that could work against the country. > should be in charge of engineering social behavior Intel is already selling PCs though. Why is it so crazy to suggest that phone companies should act more like what intel is…
>It is already allowing people to purchase devices that could work against the country. Because they made a mistake once, they should make it twice? Well, that isn't likely to convince them! >Why is it so crazy to suggest that phone companies should act more like what intel is already doing, by selling unlocked electronics? You seem to be really passionate about this, and somehow think that I oppose open platforms. I…
What I am saying is that you are suggesting an extraordinary measure. In the same way that banning all PCs is an extraordinary measure.
Such a measure would have wide reaching consequences, and large costs. Most governments are not completely irrational. They respond to incentives, and if something is very difficult to do, then they are going to be less likely to do it.
And making all phones illegal, sounds like something that would be more difficult to do, than banning a couple app stores.
> No, I don't think that.
Ok cool. So then if the phone manufactures made it so their phones were all unlocked, which is what I am recommending that they do, then you would not say that this is going down a dangerous path.
Got it. You agree with my original position that they should sell unlocked devices.
Pakistan's attitude towards Ahmadiyya is trash. It's ridiculous to me as a Pakistani that a country born to counter the persecution of minorities should so blatantly persecute them itself. I genuinely cannot process the hypocrisy.
Some of this can be understood. Because intra support is a characteristic along minorities. But the level is not just support but also active hate and cult like behavior.