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Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

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Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#91

Post by ndiscussion »

barrkel wrote: post #16
lldbg wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that retribution, which is of course the principal component of justice, is a key part of prisons. Somewhere the scales must be balanced, and if not in prisons, where then? Should the assaulted be happy with the fact that the inmate will get a job? That is not to say that prisons should be blind to the fact that inmates will eventually be released. There are plenty of people who have committed no crime, but g…

What makes you think retribution is the principal component of justice? That seems very wrong to me. Justice is a deep concept - https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justice/ is an overview, and it's not short - but on plain sight, I'd say that since it is the public, through the medium of government, that enforces justice, it should do so with a utilitarian view. Society has a vital interest in reintegrating people wh…

> Society has a vital interest in reintegrating people who have been punished

Food for thought, but this is only true if we release them. For most of history, we simply executed criminals.

In most of the world, that's still the case (thieves without hands etc).

Without making a moral judgment on what's right or wrong, if most societies evolved that way, it probably means it's conducive to the long-term health and survival of societies. Survivorship bias and all that.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#92

Post by WalterBright »

pwinnski wrote: post #75
lldbg wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was not complaining about anything. They aren't ex-felons, after they are released, they are felons. I do not think you understood my original comment, since you keep quoting that sentence only. Where is the restitution to the aggrieved party? The assaulted, the robbed, the beaten, the raped? You pay for what you do, and if your enterprise is criminal, you pay in time behind bars. Personal responsibility. Why would…

You seem to have a very limited understanding of why people commit crimes, which makes for extremely uninformed opinions. Punishing those who commit crime demonstrably does little to nothing to dissuade them from future crime. Given an understanding of the reasons why many people commit crimes makes this obvious: by taking angry people without hope, and giving them more reasons to be angry and even less hope, we end…

If someone murdered a loved one of mine, I don't see how having the state execute them would make things any better for me. I'd be satisfied if they were simply imprisoned so they could not hurt others. Punishing them further wouldn't help me at all.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#93

Post by alexashka »

underseacables wrote: post #6

In 2011-2014 I taught English and mathematics as a volunteer in a prison, and unless you’ve been there, nothing can prepare you for how truly awful America’s prison system is. The federal system is a little better, but when you get down to state prisons it gets exponentially worse. In my humble opinion, we have a vengeance and retribution mentality towards prisons in this country, when we should have a rehabilitation…

If it made financial sense, there would be rehabilitation and re-integration.

In my humble opinion, we have a magical wishful thinking (should this, should that) mentality towards the way the world works, when we should have an evidence based, rational approach instead.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#94

Post by slibhb »

WalterBright wrote: post #88
slibhb wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What makes you think retribution is the principal component of justice? That seems very wrong to me. It seems right to me. In my opinion, justice comes from the concept of reciprocity. In other words, if someone does bad, it is just that bad is done to them (retribution). The reverse is also true: it is just that good things occur to people who do good deeds. > Justice is a deep concept - https://plato.stanford.edu…

The idea of prisons should be to simply keep people away from society so they cannot harm others. There's no need to heap punishment on top of that. That's medieval and doesn't belong in modern civilization.

It's part of modern civilization for the same reason people enjoy it when the bad guy gets punished at the end of a movie. This is the essence of justice, whether you have the stomach to face it or not.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#95

Post by WalterBright »

Guest42 wrote: post #11

Entry level tech jobs are remarkably scarce and difficult to obtain/maintain. Even with a masters and experience it takes 100+ applications. Most companies don’t hire programmers and the ones that do often contract it out overseas. I know there are caveats and counter-anecdotes but this has been my set of observations over the last 10 years.

> Entry level tech jobs are remarkably scarce and difficult to obtain/maintain.

Entry level jobs are available everywhere - contributing to open source programs. Of course, nobody is going to immediately write you a check for that. But once you build a track record of competent contributions, people will be willing to pay you for more, and may even hire you.

I'm proud that many contributors to the D language have leveraged that into very well paying jobs.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#96

Post by gowld »

dudul wrote: post #9
llarsson wrote: post #3

Great initiative! Hopefully employers will not overlook these candidates because of their criminal record.

Good luck with that unfortunately. I can't remember the last time I joined a company that didn't run a background check on me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ban_the_Box#California

> California Fair Chance Act, which assists Californians with conviction histories to re-enter society by prohibiting employers from asking about conviction history before making a job offer.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#97

Post by gowld »

jariel wrote: post #48

This seems like a neat idea, but wouldn't it be more pragmatic to teach them skills they can use more universally to get jobs for which maybe there's much more cultural inclination? Like carpentry, electrician, construction, plumbing? Maybe it's prejudiced, but all the people I know that 'got in trouble' eventually made their way to construction crews. It worked well. White Collar jobs come along with a ton of other…

Not everyone has the ability to do a physically laborious job.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#98

Post by gowld »

StillBored wrote: post #63

This is nice and all, but why is everyone focused on "coding" trade schools? Can you really learn enough to make $200k a year in a "boot camp" style coding school? If so, why not doctors and lawyers too? So, i'm not a big supporter of these things because I think it trivializes the amount of effort it actually takes to be a useful team member. The people I work with are doing the logical equivalent of rebuilding the…

Coding school are popular because they are the easiest to automate with computer code.

Anyway, everyone starts at entry-level before they get 10 years of experience.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#99

Post by kyawzazaw »

WalterBright wrote: post #95
Guest42 wrote: post #11

Entry level tech jobs are remarkably scarce and difficult to obtain/maintain. Even with a masters and experience it takes 100+ applications. Most companies don’t hire programmers and the ones that do often contract it out overseas. I know there are caveats and counter-anecdotes but this has been my set of observations over the last 10 years.

> Entry level tech jobs are remarkably scarce and difficult to obtain/maintain. Entry level jobs are available everywhere - contributing to open source programs. Of course, nobody is going to immediately write you a check for that. But once you build a track record of competent contributions, people will be willing to pay you for more, and may even hire you. I'm proud that many contributors to the D language have lev…

and how many is that?

> But once you build a track record of competent contributions

how hard is this? especially for the population who is in need of actual employment.

I am a cs student and has worked professionally but even then making any meaningful contribution to any decent language is beyond what I can afford (time/energy/financial-wise).

More often than not, there is a lack of documentation (yes, I know this can be something I can contribute), very strict requirements for any pull requests, etc.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#100

Post by kyawzazaw »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #71
ppeetteerr wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't have to be fraudulent. It's easier to fill with an H1B candidate with experience than with a fresh engineer with a recent degree.

A lot (and I mean 90%+) of H1Bs are outright lying about their experience in the tech field. At least from my short time doing hiring for a position in Texas. I eventually went to our management and got them to stop listening to recruiting body shops and hire someone local.

> A lot (and I mean 90%+) of H1Bs

How can you say that with such confidence?

Maybe the issue is your workplace is using staffing agency, primarily?

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