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Making Vaccine

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Re: Making Vaccine

#81
post #68
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have suspected for much of the last year that a lot of people are running on an unexamined "Only crazy people think vaccines cause autism -> Only crazy people think vaccines are ever dangerous in any way -> All vaccines are perfectly safe" psuedo-syllogism. This is false. Put another way, the very fact that we run such massive tests on them before deploying them is itself evidence that the wrong ones can be very da…

[Deleted. I didn't fully read the parents post, and responded emotionally. That was wrong of me and I apologize]

If you think carefully, you may realize that what you said is actually entirely unrelated to what I said.

Perhaps you are not one of the people running on the unexamined assumption. I still say it's clearly operative in many people.

I call it "unexamined" precisely because once pulled up the conscious level, it is obviously false. Nevertheless, pulling such things up to the conscious level is not easy and usually takes effort. Or, to put it another why, while I cringe every time I adopt this terminology, Kahneman's System 1 is pretty sloppy about such things. System 2, when presented with a problem directly, can often see quickly that System 1 is being irrational... but it first must be presented with the problem directly.

Re: Making Vaccine

#82
post #70

Without any evidence of efficacy, this article doesn't strike me as much different from "I went into the woods and gathered up some herbs and made myself an elixir that cures covid". I guess it's neat that you did all that stuff, but unless it actually helps, who cares? Doing it with science-y ingredients instead of herbs and ordered them online instead of harvesting them from plants doesn't magically mean it actuall…

The difference however is that this article is based on the scientific method, and the go into the woods and gather herbs is based on mythology.

Now the reasonableness of experimenting on yourself, even in a scientifically "valid" way, is certainly arguable. But the elements are all there; Theory of the Immune system, Hypothesis that it can be trained in this way, experiment that trains immune system in a known with with the experimental training element.

As others have pointed out, the immune system is designed to kill cells it doesn't like. And it has been demonstrated in other scenarios that it can target cells that are vital to one's survival, resulting in death when the immune system targets and kills those cells.

Thus the risk in the experiment is that it will successfully invoke an immune response, it just won't be the one that was anticipated.

Not surprisingly, this is the whole point of animal trials to get a feel for what might happen.

Re: Making Vaccine

#83
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide more information about how vaccines can cause damage?

I said that the immune system can cause damage. Vaccines have a very high safety standard as they are given to large numbers of healthy people, so the tolerance for serious side effects is very low. So the development there is very careful, and anything that looks too dangerous is hopefully caught in animal experiments or at worst at phase I. A well known example of how dangerous the immune system can be is the follo…

I have no doubts about the safety of vaccines in healthy people. I have some harmless curiosity about people who are not known to be healthy. How do you actually determine if someone is "too immunocompromised" for a vaccine?

This must be a question with no good answer.

Re: Making Vaccine

#84

Even if no one dies from this, he and the contrarian happy clappers on lesswrong deserve a special recognition for ingenuity at the Darwin Awards. The field is crowded for 2020, what with HCQ and ivermectin truthers, statistical frauds, denialists and blind optimists, but there is a chance they'll dominate the anti-vaxxers in 2021.

It would probably be safer for him to actually get covid than develop your own diy vaccine...

Re: Making Vaccine

#85
I know some people object to biohacking like this, but I'm not convinced that we should be concerned. In general I believe that, in a free society, people should be allowed to do as they please as long as their actions don't endanger or harm others. There's a lot of nuance and caveats there, though. Perhaps this is one?

I guess I don't see an inherent problem with vaccine hacking. I'm reminded of the person who biohacked their lactose intolerance by doing gene modification on their gut. Even though it's not something I'd experiment on myself with, I was happy to learn from someone else's experience. And they're only endangering themselves; that experiment didn't pose a threat to anyone else or society.

There's perhaps an argument that these kinds of things do have an impact on others, because it might convince others to follow the author's footsteps. Well I highly doubt any joe or jane shmo is going to homebrew a vaccine. This is so niche that only a scarce few would even have the capability to do it. And again, if someone wants to do something stupid to themselves, who am I to stop them?

The only real danger is these homebrew vaxxed people mixing with herd immunity. But that's easily handled by only recognizing government approved vaccines. You're welcome to vax yourself, but if you want access to restricted public activities you'll need an official vaccine. Or if we mandate vaccination (for example the required immunizations at school), again you need an official vaccine.

But if you want to homebrew vaxx yourself against the yearly flu, or even want to homebrew vax COVID-19 and get the official one later when it's more available, I don't see the problem with any of that.

I'm mostly curious for rebuttals to this logic. Are there serious concerns about biohacking like this that I'm missing? Or is this one of the caveats where, even though it doesn't pose a danger to others, it's a serious enough danger to self that we should intervene?

P.S. As a side note, while reading this article I couldn't help but imagine a future where every hospital has a "vaccine machine" which gets fed raw materials and spits out the vaccine de jure on demand. That seems doable with this radvac protocol. It can download the latest approved peptide sequences, assemble and purify the peptides and mix up a vaccine. A vaccine 3D printer of sorts. Or maybe mRNA vaccines can be made this way? You come in once a year, the machine looks up your records and downloads a list of virus genomes from the past year that you hadn't been vaccinated against. Prints out the custom set of mRNA sequences, mixes it up, and you inject it. That's the future I'm far more interested in than a future where everyone biohacks themselves with instructions downloaded from vaccinebay.

Re: Making Vaccine

#86
post #46

Even if no one dies from this, he and the contrarian happy clappers on lesswrong deserve a special recognition for ingenuity at the Darwin Awards. The field is crowded for 2020, what with HCQ and ivermectin truthers, statistical frauds, denialists and blind optimists, but there is a chance they'll dominate the anti-vaxxers in 2021.

I'm not suprised to see this post so popular on Less Wrong/the rational community. I can easily imagine the fascination they have for crazy scientists doing experimentations on them selves, cutting all the corners and operating at fair distance of ethical concerns. I'm not very convinced by the "Motivations" section of the article by the way, but that's a nice stunt nonetheless, and quite fascinating indeed.

They've romanticised the stories of scientists self-testing and mixed it with the stories of Jenner and Fleming, misinterpreting their unethical (Jenner) and credit grabbing (Fleming) ways as brilliant contrarianism.

Re: Making Vaccine

#87
post #76
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[Deleted. I didn't fully read the parents post, and responded emotionally. That was wrong of me and I apologize]

I personally know very intelligent and highly educated people who went to top universities who are convinced vaccines caused mental retardation in their children. They may be wrong, but I would not call them nutjobs.

Being smart and being crazy are not mutually exclusive

Re: Making Vaccine

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mRNA vaccines were completed within a week or two with modern technology. It took nearly a year to test: prove that it was safe, prove that it was effective (preventing deaths, preventing hospitalizations, preventing symptoms). This blogpost completely ignores the difficult proof issue.

We could have tested it in two weeks with paid volunteers. The pay for brave vaccine testers could have literally been $1m and we’d have saved several trillion bucks and potentially over a million lives. Hell, make it $10m or $100m and you'd still save a ton of money. We've done this for several other viruses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_challenge_study

I don't think that's true. You still need to study the testers over a period of time. With a human challenge study you can get by with fewer testers and a little less time, but it won't be that different.

Re: Making Vaccine

#89

TLDR: I attempted to make a COVID vaccine. It was cheap. I have no proof that it worked. Other risks are unknown. The story reminds me of Barry Marshall, but with less science behind it. https://jamesclear.com/barry-marshall

The science is in the whitepaper: https://radvac.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/White-Paper-SA...

That said, the interesting bits are:

#1) Vaccine design at home. This is an application of what is known colloquially as "bio-hacking" and as a topic group is no less impactful than "computer hacking."

#2) You can do something for Interesting stuff indeed.

Re: Making Vaccine

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the testers would be directly exposed as part of the trial, which is why they'd be compensated -- as opposed to waiting around for 9 months for some percent of people to be exposed.

Total ethical failure here. You are supposed to not make people ill.

Disregarding a way to accelerate vaccine development by months, and save literally hundreds of thousands of lives along the way, because one thoughtlessly applies cliches like "you are supposed to not make people ill", even though the people who you make ill are all volunteers, well aware of the risk, and handsomely compensated for it, is the real total ethical failure.

It's as if when there are some "professional" ethicists in the area who give "professional" ethical guidance, people lose their natural moral sense, and defer to their "professional" guidance no matter how silly it is if you apply even modicum of scrutiny.

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