Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released • Hacker News Board

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#71

Post by shiftpgdn » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

ppeetteerr wrote: post #18

shiftpgdn wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is beyond frustrating to me to see how many jobs get filled with fraudulent H1B employees when there is no shortage of entry level coders available domestically.

They don't have to be fraudulent. It's easier to fill with an H1B candidate with experience than with a fresh engineer with a recent degree.

A lot (and I mean 90%+) of H1Bs are outright lying about their experience in the tech field. At least from my short time doing hiring for a position in Texas. I eventually went to our management and got them to stop listening to recruiting body shops and hire someone local.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#72

Post by slibhb » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 7:41 PM UTC

barrkel wrote: post #62

slibhb wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What makes you think retribution is the principal component of justice? That seems very wrong to me. It seems right to me. In my opinion, justice comes from the concept of reciprocity. In other words, if someone does bad, it is just that bad is done to them (retribution). The reverse is also true: it is just that good things occur to people who do good deeds. > Justice is a deep concept - https://plato.stanford.edu…

Sure, it's not a closed question. I'm mostly pointing out, as an example, the fact that society operates the mechanics of justice these days, it is the interests of society that are paramount. Making individuals whole is a part of that, but avoiding repetition is also vital, or else the punishment plays a part in causing crime later.

In my opinion you vastly overestimate your ability to answer questions like "what are the interests of society?" and "what causes crime?"

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#73

Post by pwinnski » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 7:42 PM UTC

lldbg wrote: post #12

underseacables wrote: post #6

In 2011-2014 I taught English and mathematics as a volunteer in a prison, and unless you’ve been there, nothing can prepare you for how truly awful America’s prison system is. The federal system is a little better, but when you get down to state prisons it gets exponentially worse. In my humble opinion, we have a vengeance and retribution mentality towards prisons in this country, when we should have a rehabilitation…

I think that retribution, which is of course the principal component of justice, is a key part of prisons. Somewhere the scales must be balanced, and if not in prisons, where then? Should the assaulted be happy with the fact that the inmate will get a job? That is not to say that prisons should be blind to the fact that inmates will eventually be released. There are plenty of people who have committed no crime, but g…

> There are plenty of people who have committed no crime, but go hungry. Where is their free lunch?

Yes, nobody should go hungry. Not in prison, not out of prison, nowhere.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#74

Post by pwinnski » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 7:46 PM UTC

StillBored wrote: post #63

This is nice and all, but why is everyone focused on "coding" trade schools? Can you really learn enough to make $200k a year in a "boot camp" style coding school? If so, why not doctors and lawyers too? So, i'm not a big supporter of these things because I think it trivializes the amount of effort it actually takes to be a useful team member. The people I work with are doing the logical equivalent of rebuilding the…

At my company, we've had two people transfer over from non-dev department to our dev department after going through a coding bootcamp, and both have worked out well.

They come in pretty junior, of course, and they're not making $200k either, but I'd say that anyone with the right mindset can learn what they need to learn at a bootcamp as easily as they can in an undergrad program, and anyone without the right mindset is going to struggle with either.

There is MUCH more pure memorization required for doctors and lawyers, and it's not even close.

That said, I agree overall: software development shouldn't be the only thing taught in prison--or any other similar program.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#75

Post by pwinnski » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 7:55 PM UTC

lldbg wrote: post #70

crispyambulance wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were complaining that inmates would deign to find work after being incarcerated. > Should the assaulted be happy with the fact that the inmate will get a job? YES, everyone should be happy if ex-felons are able to find work after leaving prison. Otherwise, they just go back their previous behaviors (eg ~80% recidivism). If they can't get work, that's effectively a "life sentence".

I was not complaining about anything. They aren't ex-felons, after they are released, they are felons. I do not think you understood my original comment, since you keep quoting that sentence only. Where is the restitution to the aggrieved party? The assaulted, the robbed, the beaten, the raped? You pay for what you do, and if your enterprise is criminal, you pay in time behind bars. Personal responsibility. Why would…

You seem to have a very limited understanding of why people commit crimes, which makes for extremely uninformed opinions.

Punishing those who commit crime demonstrably does little to nothing to dissuade them from future crime. Given an understanding of the reasons why many people commit crimes makes this obvious: by taking angry people without hope, and giving them more reasons to be angry and even less hope, we end up with an incredibly high recidivism rate. Meanwhile, harshly punishing those who've committed crimes usually doesn't make the victims of those crimes feel better, either.

So if it's not benefitting victims, and making re-offense more likely, why do we do it? So third parties can feel a sense of self-righteousness that they call "justice?" That seems to be the primary reason!

Sometimes people in dire straits do bad things, and hurt others. Punishment is reasonable, but objectively, rehabilitation is also needed. Restitution to victims, and victim statements, also help. We can look around the world and see objectively that there are many ways to do this better than we're doing, by any measure. It's both more humane, and more effective.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#76

Post by WrtCdEvrydy » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 8:00 PM UTC

dudul wrote: post #66

WrtCdEvrydy wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually a background check just means a credit check.

I meant it as a check for criminal record.

Yeah, usually it's just a credit check... people are cheap and corporations are cheaper.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#77

Post by lldbg » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 8:10 PM UTC

pwinnski wrote: post #75

lldbg wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was not complaining about anything. They aren't ex-felons, after they are released, they are felons. I do not think you understood my original comment, since you keep quoting that sentence only. Where is the restitution to the aggrieved party? The assaulted, the robbed, the beaten, the raped? You pay for what you do, and if your enterprise is criminal, you pay in time behind bars. Personal responsibility. Why would…

You seem to have a very limited understanding of why people commit crimes, which makes for extremely uninformed opinions. Punishing those who commit crime demonstrably does little to nothing to dissuade them from future crime. Given an understanding of the reasons why many people commit crimes makes this obvious: by taking angry people without hope, and giving them more reasons to be angry and even less hope, we end…

Of course my opinions seem uninformed to you, when you intentionally misconstrue them as you have done.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#78

Post by threatofrain » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 8:15 PM UTC

lldbg wrote: post #70

crispyambulance wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were complaining that inmates would deign to find work after being incarcerated. > Should the assaulted be happy with the fact that the inmate will get a job? YES, everyone should be happy if ex-felons are able to find work after leaving prison. Otherwise, they just go back their previous behaviors (eg ~80% recidivism). If they can't get work, that's effectively a "life sentence".

I was not complaining about anything. They aren't ex-felons, after they are released, they are felons. I do not think you understood my original comment, since you keep quoting that sentence only. Where is the restitution to the aggrieved party? The assaulted, the robbed, the beaten, the raped? You pay for what you do, and if your enterprise is criminal, you pay in time behind bars. Personal responsibility. Why would…

> Where is the restitution to the aggrieved party? The assaulted, the robbed, the beaten, the raped? You pay for what you do, and if your enterprise is criminal, you pay in time behind bars. Personal responsibility. Why would anyone want to hire a wife-beater?

Criminal law is about wrongs against the state. In regards to payment for restitution, how is the state being restored by somebody rotting in jail?

What sort of payment is this that the state may end up even poorer than before? In fact, if serving in prison is payment, then I'd say it's the state that's paying for the prison and all the harms which follow.

If the state should find itself awfully harmed from its own criminal justice policy, from where shall the state seek remedy?

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#79

Post by bryanrasmussen » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 9:25 PM UTC

Layke1123 wrote: post #40

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Should the assaulted be happy with the fact that the inmate will get a job? It was not until now that I came to realize that everyone in American prisons are actually there for assault. The mind reels.

I upvoted you, but I want to make sure my reasons for doing so are accurate. This was sarcasm, yes? It might not be so obvious if others read through this so just want to clarify.

I was drily sarcastic yes, as it is obvious that very few people are in prison for assault any argument that makes an appeal to the emotions with the phrasing used is somewhat deserving of being punctured. I thought my response good at indicating the absurdity.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#80

Post by bryanrasmussen » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 9:37 PM UTC

lldbg wrote: post #43

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Should the assaulted be happy with the fact that the inmate will get a job? It was not until now that I came to realize that everyone in American prisons are actually there for assault. The mind reels.

Nowhere did I make that claim.

By stating your hypothetical "Should the assaulted be happy with the fact that the inmate will get a job?" you made a condition only sometimes encountered - violent crime - a reason to treat all criminals worse.

I assumed that you did not actually believe that all criminals in America had assaulted someone, but if you did not believe it then arguing for the punishment of people who did not commit violent acts (by making it more difficult for them to get jobs when released) seems far worse than if you just did believe a ridiculous thing.

And really by using in your argument an emotional hypothetical about the assaulted to argue for denying something to people who have not committed assault it becomes difficult to know exactly how to take it.

The argument is hard to take seriously if you don't really believe it is true for all criminals, and it is difficult to believe you think it is true for all criminals.