Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released • Hacker News Board

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#51

Post by lldbg » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

mmcgaha wrote: post #20

lldbg wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that retribution, which is of course the principal component of justice, is a key part of prisons. Somewhere the scales must be balanced, and if not in prisons, where then? Should the assaulted be happy with the fact that the inmate will get a job? That is not to say that prisons should be blind to the fact that inmates will eventually be released. There are plenty of people who have committed no crime, but g…

I can empathize with how you feel (even how a victim could feel) but a public good will come from teaching prisoners a skill so they don't have to victimize someone else when they get out.

You never _have_ to victimize someone, no matter your circumstances.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#52

Post by zamalek » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 6:42 PM UTC

lldbg wrote: post #12

underseacables wrote: post #6

In 2011-2014 I taught English and mathematics as a volunteer in a prison, and unless you’ve been there, nothing can prepare you for how truly awful America’s prison system is. The federal system is a little better, but when you get down to state prisons it gets exponentially worse. In my humble opinion, we have a vengeance and retribution mentality towards prisons in this country, when we should have a rehabilitation…

I think that retribution, which is of course the principal component of justice, is a key part of prisons. Somewhere the scales must be balanced, and if not in prisons, where then? Should the assaulted be happy with the fact that the inmate will get a job? That is not to say that prisons should be blind to the fact that inmates will eventually be released. There are plenty of people who have committed no crime, but g…

I say this knowing full-well that I might seek retribution if something awful were to ever happen to me or my loved ones, but:

> I think that retribution, which is of course the principal component of justice, is a key part of prisons.

No amount of retribution will ever be enough. The concept of making things right is a delusion that parents infect their children with.

However, the most effective way to inflict retribution is to teach an individual the meaning of their actions and have them live with the guilt of those actions. Another word for that is rehabilitation.

American prisons are based on childish like-for-like retribution (your limited someone's rights, you get your rights limited). It didn't work when I was 8, so why would it work for an adult? All that we achieve is sending people to crime college, where fellow inmates further numb moral fiber and empathy, then release graduated criminals back into the wild. That's certainly one way to make sure that there is always demand for retribution.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#53

Post by veryfancy » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

lldbg wrote: post #12

underseacables wrote: post #6

In 2011-2014 I taught English and mathematics as a volunteer in a prison, and unless you’ve been there, nothing can prepare you for how truly awful America’s prison system is. The federal system is a little better, but when you get down to state prisons it gets exponentially worse. In my humble opinion, we have a vengeance and retribution mentality towards prisons in this country, when we should have a rehabilitation…

I think that retribution, which is of course the principal component of justice, is a key part of prisons. Somewhere the scales must be balanced, and if not in prisons, where then? Should the assaulted be happy with the fact that the inmate will get a job? That is not to say that prisons should be blind to the fact that inmates will eventually be released. There are plenty of people who have committed no crime, but g…

> Should the assaulted be happy with the fact that the inmate will get a job?

Yes.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#54

Post by Layke1123 » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

EForEndeavour wrote: post #7

JoeyBananas wrote: post #2

> The Last Mile’s program is defying the country’s 83 percent recidivism rate. In its 10 years existence, there has been zero recidivism amongst it’s nearly 100 graduates, graduates that include Jason Jones. Those numbers tell you everything you need to know. They're not "solving mass incarceration" any time soon.

It's especially strange to me to see such future-blind thinking in the message board of the world's most famous startup accelerator. The Last Mile's website ( https://thelastmile.org/about/ ) lists not 100 graduates, but 240 "returned citizens" who have successfully rejoined society, still with a 0% recidivism rate. This article said they only have 100 or so graduates, and the article was published in January of last…

I suspect it's likely to promote a certain viewpoint. Hacker News has a vested interest in not questioning a system that it benefits from.

For instance, anyone who might be critical of a US historical policy typically has "no business" here because politics cause ideological flame wars, or some other half baked reasoning.

While it is very encouraging at fostering dialogue on tech, once the dialogue goes against Hacker News's ultimate purpose, to make money, that's where you start to see weird accounts and strangely offensive comments questioning the act of questioning.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#55

Post by crispyambulance » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 6:45 PM UTC

underseacables wrote: post #6

In 2011-2014 I taught English and mathematics as a volunteer in a prison, and unless you’ve been there, nothing can prepare you for how truly awful America’s prison system is. The federal system is a little better, but when you get down to state prisons it gets exponentially worse. In my humble opinion, we have a vengeance and retribution mentality towards prisons in this country, when we should have a rehabilitation…

It's really hard for an audience on HN to truly appreciate the situations incarcerated people find themselves in.

I think it's fine to "teach prisoners coding" as along as the people involved are aware that to even get to that point, how much BASIC education has to be re-done or done for the first time. Moreover, things like resumes, job hunting, and relating to people in a work environment is something that these folks need to learn and practice. Most have never done that. I've not taught in prisons, but have done ABE (Adult Basic Ed, which is all but required for folks to get through before they can even start a GRE program, and which many parolees are required to enroll in).

In other words, "learning to code" is great, but instruction for literacy, numeracy, and socialization HAVE TO OCCUR before that's even considered, otherwise it's just a cruel pipe-dream.

We so lucky, most of us, to have grown up in an environment where learning achievement is expected and supported by responsible adults. Most of the incarcerated folks have lived a level of depravation that we can't even imagine.

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#56

Post by benlivengood » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 6:46 PM UTC

lldbg wrote: post #12

underseacables wrote: post #6

In 2011-2014 I taught English and mathematics as a volunteer in a prison, and unless you’ve been there, nothing can prepare you for how truly awful America’s prison system is. The federal system is a little better, but when you get down to state prisons it gets exponentially worse. In my humble opinion, we have a vengeance and retribution mentality towards prisons in this country, when we should have a rehabilitation…

I think that retribution, which is of course the principal component of justice, is a key part of prisons. Somewhere the scales must be balanced, and if not in prisons, where then? Should the assaulted be happy with the fact that the inmate will get a job? That is not to say that prisons should be blind to the fact that inmates will eventually be released. There are plenty of people who have committed no crime, but g…

> Should the assaulted be happy with the fact that the inmate will get a job?

Would the assaulted be happier having to work to support the attacker for the rest of their life?

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#57

Post by whimsicalism » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 6:50 PM UTC

emidln wrote: post #44

Guest42 wrote: post #11

Entry level tech jobs are remarkably scarce and difficult to obtain/maintain. Even with a masters and experience it takes 100+ applications. Most companies don’t hire programmers and the ones that do often contract it out overseas. I know there are caveats and counter-anecdotes but this has been my set of observations over the last 10 years.

In my experience hiring for jr webdev and full stack roles, about 1 in 5 people could pass fizzbuzz (even when the mathematical algorithm was explained in writing). About 1 in 100 completed the basic web app demo (untimed, take home, expected to take between 30 minutes and 2 hours, in any language, with a test suite included as a shell script). I often hired the first person even remotely qualified with the intent on…

Well how much were you all paying?

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#58

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 6:51 PM UTC

BeetleB wrote: post #31

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the country’s 83 percent recidivism rate Holy shizz, that's a lot. It's as if US laws and prisons aren't there to rehabilitate an individual but to turn him against society for good, making him a returning "customer" so that certain interest groups can keep profiting. But that's just probably my imagination running wild.

Monday's segment of Marketplace is worth listening to. The gist of it was that in many (all?) places in the US, a landlord can be sued if they rent to someone who has a criminal record who then went on commit another crime. As a result, few landlords will rent to them. I hang out on real estate forums and have never met anyone who would rent to someone with a criminal record. Getting a job is a whole other problem. T…

That's pretty bonkers since in most European countries, your crime record is only relevant for certain jobs where money or sensitive data is at stake and nothing else.

How does society expect ex-cons to become functioning members again if they're denied housing and employment?

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#59

Post by crispyambulance » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 6:53 PM UTC

lldbg wrote: post #49

alpha_squared wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should the assaulted be happy with the fact that the inmate will get a job? Um... what? This is borderline advocating for all sentences be for life. If a sentence is given and served, the convicted deserve a chance at living. The US has a terrifying and awful fetish for punishing lower/middle-class folks who commit some of the pettiest of crimes, many of which struggle to re-integrate with society if/when they're r…

I don't think I advocated that all sentences should be for life, and I don't get how you got to there from what I wrote.

You were complaining that inmates would deign to find work after being incarcerated.

> Should the assaulted be happy with the fact that the inmate will get a job?

YES, everyone should be happy if ex-felons are able to find work after leaving prison. Otherwise, they just go back their previous behaviors (eg ~80% recidivism). If they can't get work, that's effectively a "life sentence".

Re: Program teaches prisoners coding so they can land tech jobs once released

#60

Post by MikeDelta » Fri, Feb 05, 2021, 6:56 PM UTC

jariel wrote: post #48

This seems like a neat idea, but wouldn't it be more pragmatic to teach them skills they can use more universally to get jobs for which maybe there's much more cultural inclination? Like carpentry, electrician, construction, plumbing? Maybe it's prejudiced, but all the people I know that 'got in trouble' eventually made their way to construction crews. It worked well. White Collar jobs come along with a ton of other…

You are right. I don't want to sound bitter but I guess this is easier to teach by trainers who are not very skilled or experienced; following a bootcamp might be enough to write a programming texbook for beginners and the inexperienced not able to tell the difference, whereas making a cabinet by an inexperienced trainer will immediately be obvious. In addition, I can imagine there is more funding available for this and therefore easier to milk.