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SpaceX says Starlink now has over 10k users

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Re: SpaceX says Starlink now has over 10k users

#131

Post by imtringued »

ixfo wrote: post #49
kornbattery wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each satellite is said to have ~20 gbit/s usable bandwidth, and they're launching tens of thousands of them. The answer should be "a lot"

10,000 * 20Gbps = 200Tbps, and that all assumes that the traffic is going in and out directly from customer to internet with none of that capacity used for anything else like groundstation-to-groundstation hops or anything like that. You'll find a *lot* more than 200Tbps of usable bandwidth in even a moderately sized national operator. At a small ISP (~90k users) we have about 25Tbps of capacity in our equipment. A s…

It wouldn't surprise me if they put ground stations in every country. Doing a satellite to satellite hop across 10 countries needlessly wastes the limited bandwidth of your satellites. It makes more sense to just use the satellites for last mile delivery and hard to reach places.

Re: SpaceX says Starlink now has over 10k users

#132

Post by mrkstu »

legolas2412 wrote: post #121
hnarn wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's just really really uneconomical to build out wireline service. Presumably these people are hooked up to the electrical grid, and if that is the case why isn't that equally uneconomical? Do they have phone lines? Having people hooked up to fiber or at least DSL is in my experience often mostly a political issue.

Yeah, I never understood this either. If electrical lines, or phone lines offering dial-ups can be laid down, and the major cost is digging, then why can ADSL or Fiber be laid down too?

DSL slows over distance. If you're far enough out, you're basically back to dial-up speeds unless they are willing to build cabinets closer, which no North American carrier I've heard of is still doing for DSL.

BPL (Broadband over Powerline) also requires heavy investment [0]:

- Only low and medium voltage power cables can be used for access BPL. - Signals need booster equipment to make them travel long distances. - Transformers, circuit breakers, and surge protectors can interfere with broadband signals.

[0] https://www.explainthatstuff.com/broadbandoverpowerlines.htm...

Re: SpaceX says Starlink now has over 10k users

#133

Post by hnarn »

mrkstu wrote: post #132
legolas2412 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I never understood this either. If electrical lines, or phone lines offering dial-ups can be laid down, and the major cost is digging, then why can ADSL or Fiber be laid down too?

DSL slows over distance. If you're far enough out, you're basically back to dial-up speeds unless they are willing to build cabinets closer, which no North American carrier I've heard of is still doing for DSL. BPL (Broadband over Powerline) also requires heavy investment [0]: - Only low and medium voltage power cables can be used for access BPL. - Signals need booster equipment to make them travel long distances. -…

> DSL slows over distance.

Again, can't the exact same argument be made for why some citizens shouldn't be connected to the electrical grid?

While I don't dispute that electricity is more vital than a fiber connection, the point I'm trying to make is that this is primarily a political issue and not an economical one.

I don't think anyone was suggesting BPL as an alternative.

Re: SpaceX says Starlink now has over 10k users

#134

Post by vaduz »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #114
oseityphelysiol wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I gather beamforming operates only in limited range, i.e. tracking satellites as they move small fraction of a degree per second. For bigger adjustments the dishes turn mechanically. It's not clear if beamforming could handle relatively small waves, but for big ones mechanical adjustment would be needed. I'm speaking out of my ass, but if I had to guess moving the antenna mechanically would not keep the lin…

They've demonstrated 650Mbps connections between Starlink and a jet plane. Sailboat & wave motion will be trivial in comparison.

Where did they demonstrate it? Latest news was that they filed for a license [0] to install 5 user terminals on up to 5 Gulfstream planes - application that is still pending.

[0] https://fcc.report/ELS/Space-Exploration-Holdings-LLC/0955-E...

Re: SpaceX says Starlink now has over 10k users

#135

Post by mrkstu »

hnarn wrote: post #133
mrkstu wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DSL slows over distance. If you're far enough out, you're basically back to dial-up speeds unless they are willing to build cabinets closer, which no North American carrier I've heard of is still doing for DSL. BPL (Broadband over Powerline) also requires heavy investment [0]: - Only low and medium voltage power cables can be used for access BPL. - Signals need booster equipment to make them travel long distances. -…

> DSL slows over distance. Again, can't the exact same argument be made for why some citizens shouldn't be connected to the electrical grid? While I don't dispute that electricity is more vital than a fiber connection, the point I'm trying to make is that this is primarily a political issue and not an economical one. I don't think anyone was suggesting BPL as an alternative.

Ok, I mistook your mentioning of electrical connection as suggesting BPL as an alternative delivery mechanism.

But again, no NA carrier I'm aware of is pushing out new DSL DSLAMs anywhere in the country or even building out copper capability at all in new neighborhoods. Its a legacy technology that isn't being invested in, for good or ill.

Re: SpaceX says Starlink now has over 10k users

#136

Post by vaduz »

japanuspus wrote: post #37
csomar wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also a sailboat (even a big one) is not stable and from experience satellite receivers can lose connection on slightly strong winds. So I guess this wouldn't work even if Starlink allowed it.

The starlink antenna may look like an ordinarry satelite dish -- but it is a super-advanced phased array antenna which uses a lot of signal processing to electronically steer the beam. This electronic beam steering should have no problems keeping up with boat motion.

Speed of beamforming tracking is not the problem - what is a problem is the lack of compensation for movement of the base station (and necessary hardware for it) which is quite evident when people test it in motion [0] - which is quite understandable, SpaceX had to think about the features it actually needs to support to get current price point and use in motion is not the intended target for the current rollout. Tracking is much easier if you can assume that the ground station is immobile.

And no, putting it in a passive gimbal as some of the other commenters are suggesting is not enough to fix this as the direction of the antenna beam is not even close to being parallel to ground (like it is when a gimbal is used with a marine radar).

Plus there is the fact that it does not appear to be sufficiently waterproofed to begin with and the motor mount is rather flimsy (both a problem if you want to use it at sea instead of lakes...).

Marine antennas for Starlink will come, no doubt - but the current home user terminal one is not it.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU2y-QmQfXY

Re: SpaceX says Starlink now has over 10k users

#137

Post by tpmx »

Johnythree wrote: post #128
tpmx wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A practical concern with Starlink in this scenario is that the dish consumes ~100 watts. Bring 2 square meters of solar panel, an inverter and some batteries and hope for sun.

You can turn it off when not in use. Whatever, your present PC, Monitor, printer, Router, and Internet wireless will already be using more than 100W.

Printer, monitor, ... ?

A ~15 watt Macbook Air M1 seems suitable when living on a boat.

Re: SpaceX says Starlink now has over 10k users

#138

Post by LinuxBender »

wj wrote: post #68
the_duke wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Musk mentioned on Twitter that it should be doable. https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1323691195239960579 I reckon the current restrictions will ease up when more sats are deployed, especially with more laser interconnects.

When this was announced I actually assumed this was a ploy to get fast Internet into Teslas.

It is for the US Army. They are the initial customer anyway. Civilians are the best beta testers. The internet was originally created to have a network in place for the military and I see this as the natural evolution beyond hard wired systems or intermittent wireless towers.

Re: SpaceX says Starlink now has over 10k users

#139

Post by LinuxBender »

darkhorn wrote: post #52
Someone wrote: post #48

Reading it cynically/critically/literally, one could interpret it as counting users, not customers (so a family of four sharing a link would count as four users). They also mention “thousands of customers”, so I guess that reading may be correct. Also, as to economics, Wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starlink ) says there will be up to 30,000 of these satellites. Even if (from https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/1…

Isn't Starlink's main customer the USA army?

Yes, they are the first big customer. Civilians do the beta testing. It's a win-win for everyone.

Re: SpaceX says Starlink now has over 10k users

#140

Post by Tiktaalik »

clon wrote: post #51

As an amateur astronomer and astrophotographer, I'm biased against the massive cost of the StarLink pollution fleet to our ability to gaze at the wonders above. I think the Vera C. Rubin Observatory is a much higher priority project for humanity, than StarLink. That said, I think Elon needs to travel the world a little more. Several of his attempts to solve purported world-relevant issues may be founded in limitation…

The issue you describe is Elite Projection. Musk has it bad. Eg. He has a problem with traffic congestion when he drives his car, and he thinks solving that problem for him will address real, broad transportation problems. It won't.

https://humantransit.org/2017/07/the-dangers-of-elite-projec...

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