Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

buzzfeednews.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 515 posts

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#121

Post by rfrey »

echelon wrote: post #56
ycombigator wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censorship I don't like...

If you argue against censoring Republicans on HN, you'll get downvoted. We should oppose censorship of any form. We have a legal framework to deal with terroristic threats, child porn, and libel / slander. This year has shown the incredible power FAAMG yields with deplatformization, but they've been using their power to cave to authoritarian regimes and belittle minority populations for awhile. It all has to stop. Bi…

I haven't seen much if any support for "censoring Republicans" on HN, or for that matter, anywhere. What I have seen is support for censoring groups instigating violent overthrow of US institutions. The fact that those advocating such violence call themselves Republicans does not mean people are advocating for censoring Republicans as a class.

These words matter to me, because unless you are a free-speech absolutist (which most people are not), it's unfair to mischaracterize what sorts of things people are claiming cross the line. It's not being Republican.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#122

Post by ZanyProgrammer »

umvi wrote: post #75
zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

> Would it be fair if England declared Catholics "unChristian" and banned their use if the term? I think it's slightly more nuanced than that. For example, England should be able to declare whether a given group of people are members of the Church of England (organization). Wherever a centralized authority exists, that authority should have the power to declare whether or not someone is a member of the organization.…

Ironically, the British government once claimed to dictate to non Anglicans that they couldn't hold the same names of bishoprics as CofE bishops. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Relief_Act_1829

Hence why the RC primate of England is the Archbishop of Westminster, not a dual RC Archbishop of Canterbury.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#123

Post by II2II »

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #37

Pakistan's laws are clearly wrong, but Apple and Google do not and should not have the authority to bypass any country's laws.

Agreed, but this also raises the question: what should their course of action be?

The course of action they followed implicitly supports human rights violations, in order to continue operating within a given country. Note that I am not saying the action itself is a human rights violation. They certainly have the right to choose what to publish and they are limiting the scope of their actions to the laws of the country question. The decision is entirely reasonable if the context of those laws is ignored. The decision is also entirely reasonable when you consider that Apple and Google are large enough entities that not operating within that country or doing so in violation of their laws could rightfully be considered as exerting political pressure.

I doubt that there is actually a good answer to the question. There is only a lesser-of-evils answer, where they probably made the right choice even though I find their profiting from that choice disgusting.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#124

Post by coryrc »

kmeisthax wrote: post #111
echelon wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you argue against censoring Republicans on HN, you'll get downvoted. We should oppose censorship of any form. We have a legal framework to deal with terroristic threats, child porn, and libel / slander. This year has shown the incredible power FAAMG yields with deplatformization, but they've been using their power to cave to authoritarian regimes and belittle minority populations for awhile. It all has to stop. Bi…

I generally support what you're saying, however there are two complicating factors with the Parler deplatforming that make me tolerate it. Not accept it, but tolerate it. 1. Parler was being used specifically to plan out acts of terrorism; and their moderation team took no action to stop it 2. Parler was not a free speech platform On that first bit: while I generally want big platforms to be regulated like common car…

How The Capitol Assault Was Planned On Facebook

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/davidmack/how-us-capito...

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#125

Post by criddell »

natch wrote: post #116
criddell wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Let me know when Republicans start getting blocked for their political philosophy rooted in evidence and opinion Have you considered that their political philosophy has changed to exactly the things you listed?

Changed, what, like the wind? Hypocrites will say whatever they think will get them what they want at the time. Change is a given with hypocrites. Principled philosophy is not.

The MAGA part of the GOP's philosophy seems to be (or was) back Trump no matter what. For those people parroting election lies said by Trump is their political speech. Political speech doesn't have to be truthful or grounded to a philosophy, does it?

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#126

Post by fleshdaddy »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #17
aNoob7000 wrote: post #12

I'm worried about the future of computing devices. With Apple and Google going with the walled garden approach, What's to stop any government from telling Apple and Google that an app is illegal?

> What's to stop any government from telling Apple and Google that an app is illegal? Nothing; that's most of the idea of a government.

It would seem to me that in the case of apps they’re telling us what information is legal. That isn’t most of the idea of government for people.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#127

Post by FlownScepter »

II2II wrote: post #123
rmrfrmrf wrote: post #37

Pakistan's laws are clearly wrong, but Apple and Google do not and should not have the authority to bypass any country's laws.

Agreed, but this also raises the question: what should their course of action be? The course of action they followed implicitly supports human rights violations, in order to continue operating within a given country. Note that I am not saying the action itself is a human rights violation. They certainly have the right to choose what to publish and they are limiting the scope of their actions to the laws of the countr…

> Agreed, but this also raises the question: what should their course of action be?

To comply with the law.

No, I don't like it either, but I also don't like the idea of corporations having the ability to flout the laws of sovereign nations because they disagree with them.

> The course of action they followed implicitly supports human rights violations

This is not a "course of action" anymore than not committing a crime is a public service. Enforcing human rights laws is not Apple or Google's job, full stop. They are corporations who's goal is to make money, and that's it. Enforcing human rights is what Governments are for.

Instead of asking "why aren't Apple and Google helping activists in Pakistan?" ask "why is Pakistan allowed to abuse it's citizenry in 2021?"

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#128

Post by jmull »

zupreme wrote: post #51

For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…

The (rather massive) flaw in your reasoning is the idea that Google and Apple are the solution to the problem.

If you live in a society without religious freedom, that's a big problem, but Apple and Google can't fix it.

If you care about the problem, it's important to understand this. If you succeed in getting people to focus on symptom of the problem and not the cause, you will help prevent it from being addressed.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#129

Post by edrxty »

kop316 wrote: post #54
rmrfrmrf wrote: post #37

Pakistan's laws are clearly wrong, but Apple and Google do not and should not have the authority to bypass any country's laws.

So may I ask your opinion of this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI%E2%80%93Apple_encryption_d...

Providing tools (strong encryption) isn't really the same as managing a whole market and dictating who can and cannot participate based on random whims.

If they were giving the FBI backdoors but not the UK or Pakistan, then it would be a different story.

Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims

#130

Post by desi_ninja »

an interesting experiment is that with a politically charged post on India, many Indians will comment to criticize their own country and Pakistanis and some middle East folks would chime in too. but in case like this where Pak is involved, thry are all absent from discourse. not a single pakistani wants to criticize their country. Why ?
Post reply on HN