Pakistan's attitude towards Ahmadiyya is trash. It's ridiculous to me as a Pakistani that a country born to counter the persecution of minorities should so blatantly persecute them itself. I genuinely cannot process the hypocrisy.
Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
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Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#92Pakistan's persecution of the Ahmadis is despicable (and that of Hindus, and Christians), and Apple and Google's meek compliance is craven.
Unfortunately, this is not a Pakistan specific thing. Ahmadis have been persecuted in pretty much every major Muslim nation. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Ahmadis Prima facie, it'd seem that the common factor enabling their persecution is Islam.
The list of countries in that article also includes Belarus, Belgium and Bulgaria, where the common factor seems to have been Islamophobia instead.
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#93Earlier quoted context omitted.
That would be nice if phones were open and free, but they aren't. For many, especially in developing nations, the phone is the way to access the internet. If Google/Apple wouldn't have such a stranglehold on the world of mobile phones, people would be free to choose which app repo they use or which apps they sideload. But sadly, they are not.
How would they be free? A country like Pakistan could just as easily block any service that provides content they deem illegal ( as is the case here) via the ISPs( SNI sniffing, DNS blocking, IP blocking) that can't disagree. If anything, Google and Apple have more leverage than F-Droid or similar because Pakistan can't block them without significant backlash, and needs their cooperation, which is at least debated (…
Right now Pakistan is able to block any service they deem as illegal by getting Google and Apple to block it. They have two gates they need to close.
If users could load any apps they want outside of the google and apple stores there would be many gates that countries like Pakistan would need to close. Not only more gates but new gates opening every day. Basically, it would be the old internet model, which is very difficult to control.
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, we keep saying this. But the alternative is right in front of us... it is the open Web and related technologies. If someone was hosting a website outside of Pakistan, it would be much harder to take down than just petitioning Google or Apple. Wordpress powers 40% of all such websites. But for Web 2.0 where are the open source alternatives? Discourse? We need something that can handle chatrooms, videoconferencing…
> someone was hosting a website outside of Pakistan, it would be much harder to take down than just petitioning Google or Apple ISPs are still in Pakistan, so if the country wants, there are a myriad of ways to block a website. Most are preventable, but for the majority of people the site will be effectively blocked.
Okay so replace DNS with DHT, and have people use Tor or Beaker browsers with Dat or MaidSAFE
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#95For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…
"These may seem fair to you" I don't see 'seeming fair' to most people. This is just yet another example of Google and Apple's monopoly preferences being leveraged by entities that have more leverage than them. It has to stop. Free The Apps.
It took me a second to get this argument, but it’s a good one. If there were thousands of marketplaces on iOS and Android, then Pakistan would have to negotiate the removal on all of this platforms, as opposed to only two.
Spelling it out clearly like that, it makes me wonder if there are many governments that prefer to have monopolies to deal with, rather than many companies. It certainly makes regulation simpler.
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#96For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…
The fundamental issue with the argument you're presenting is that Pakistan is not a secular country, unlike England or the USA. An example of a country that bases their government on a particular religion allowing citizens to freely declare whether they're adherents of that religion even if their practice differs significantly compared to established orthodoxy would significantly strengthen this assertion.
> Pakistan is not a secular country, unlike England or the USA
It's a minor quibble, but England does have an established national Church, so it's not entirely secular in the way the US is. 26 CofE Bishops sit in the House of Lords, the Lords Spiritual. The head of state is also the head of the Church.
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#97Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
Censorship I don't like...
If you argue against censoring Republicans on HN, you'll get downvoted. We should oppose censorship of any form. We have a legal framework to deal with terroristic threats, child porn, and libel / slander. This year has shown the incredible power FAAMG yields with deplatformization, but they've been using their power to cave to authoritarian regimes and belittle minority populations for awhile. It all has to stop. Bi…
Let me know when Republicans start getting blocked for their political philosophy rooted in evidence and opinion, and I'll start being concerned.
As long as people of any party regurgitate lies about election results against all evidence, and those lies seem to be fomenting violence, I'm leaning towards "it's okay" to remove them from certain sites.
I disagree the big platforms should be common carriers. I think ISPs and datacenters should be.
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#99For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…
> Would it be fair if England declared Catholics "unChristian" and banned their use if the term? I think it's slightly more nuanced than that. For example, England should be able to declare whether a given group of people are members of the Church of England (organization). Wherever a centralized authority exists, that authority should have the power to declare whether or not someone is a member of the organization.…
Not everyone agrees with any given central authority. In religion especially this is often over relatively complex reasons that outsiders probably aren't in a position to try and navigate. You need only to refer to religious history and it's many wars to see this: the tri-part nature of Christ, the exact date of Easter, the shaving of heads in early English history, etc.
Nor should we start allowing the Church of England to press Google into service putting it's agenda forward. We recognize that dissent is an important part of free speech!
Re: Google, Apple cave to Pakistan pressure to take down apps by Ahmadiyya Muslims
#100For those defending this practice, consider carefully the implications of what you are advocating. On one hand you have a government deciding who can and cannot refer to themselves as adherents of a particular religion (by declaring that Ahamadis cannot call themselves Muslim). On another hand you have Google and Apple, yet again, being the complicit chokepoints of “free speech”, with regard to app developers. These…
> Would it be fair if England declared Catholics "unChristian" and banned their use if the term? I think it's slightly more nuanced than that. For example, England should be able to declare whether a given group of people are members of the Church of England (organization). Wherever a centralized authority exists, that authority should have the power to declare whether or not someone is a member of the organization.…
> England should be able to declare whether a given group of people are members of the Church of England (organization). Wherever a centralized authority exists, that authority should have the power to declare whether or not someone is a member of the organization. The Catholic church should absolutely be able to declare some rogue sect that claims to be Catholic "unCatholic".
They should have the power to declare whether or not they consider someone to be a member of an organization. Nothing more. This goes beyond simply declaring whether or not they consider Ahmadis to be Muslims. The Pakistani government is using "anti-blasphemy" laws to silence anyone who objects to their declaration.