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Peter Naur's view of programming

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Re: Peter Naur's view of programming

#161
post #80

Anyone read the post author's book, Hiring Engineers? Is it any good and worth the $75?

Hey, author here. What's the situation that you're in? You (or anyone else reading this) can ping me at alexander [at] hiringengineersbook [dot] com, maybe I can help you figure out if the book is good for your situation or give some advice on the spot.

No worries, not trying to sell anything (other than the book), just always curious what challenges people are facing when hiring.

Re: Peter Naur's view of programming

#162
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading and writing scale in theory . They require an organization staffed with people who are strong readers and writers. Unfortunately, many people, especially those forced into remote work during the pandemic, are not. They will not read through explicit, clear, but long documentation; they will not respond by writing questions of their own, and will often fail at writing explicit and clear documentation of their…

....They won't do their job.

Their job is not to write docs, it's to produce a product. The docs are a possible tool towards that goal, but there are others, with different trade-offs - such as in-person trainings.

It is fairly obvious that most of the industry believes the opposite from you here - thorough docs are an extremely expensive way of achieving good context, and as such are usually replaced with training sessions, which seem to fit most people better up to some point.

Re: Peter Naur's view of programming

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a one-way transfer of information. - The student has questions that it wouldn't have occurred to the teacher to answer. - The student gets confused and asks for things to be rephrased or reframed. - The student has questions that don't currently have static answers, but get computed by the teacher in real time, according to an intuition and assimilation of the facts that the student is only beginning to deve…

I learned f all in college and everything through reading and watching back video tutorials/lectures. YMMV.

Then you had poor teachers or a poor structure that didn't give you access to teachers in the right way.

While documentation has both advantages and disadvantages compared to in-person training, video tutorials are strictly worse than an interactive lecture.

Re: Peter Naur's view of programming

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I learned f all in college and everything through reading and watching back video tutorials/lectures. YMMV.

Then you had poor teachers or a poor structure that didn't give you access to teachers in the right way. While documentation has both advantages and disadvantages compared to in-person training, video tutorials are strictly worse than an interactive lecture.

I’m an autodidact. No teacher can provide the density and velocity of information and knowledge the Internet, science papers and books can provide. I can’t watch a lecture at 2x speed if its live. I can’t cherry pick. I have to be at a certain place at a certain time when I might not be in the right headspace. Then add on top that’s it’s basically a crapshoot whether or not you get along with your teacher or not. I don’t regret going to college but I didn’t gain much academic knowledge there either.

Re: Peter Naur's view of programming

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

....They won't do their job.

Their job is not to write docs, it's to produce a product. The docs are a possible tool towards that goal, but there are others, with different trade-offs - such as in-person trainings. It is fairly obvious that most of the industry believes the opposite from you here - thorough docs are an extremely expensive way of achieving good context, and as such are usually replaced with training sessions, which seem to fit mo…

You can’t do in-person training properly without docs. It’s not an either or choice.

Re: Peter Naur's view of programming

#167
post #23

“One of the fears from management was that a big company like Google could take our code and build a competing service.” Google, or any other respectable company, would not touch source code without a permissive license with a ten foot pole, least of all if it was retrieved as a result of improper access.

Two more reasons Google doesn't touch others code: 1. They have monorepo with custom build infra, which makes integrating any third_party code pretty hard. 2. In google career culture, one gets promoted for development of something new, not integrating existing proved solutions.

>They have monorepo with custom build infra, which makes integrating any third_party code pretty hard.

Why would it be significantly harder than creating new project?

Re: Peter Naur's view of programming

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you had poor teachers or a poor structure that didn't give you access to teachers in the right way. While documentation has both advantages and disadvantages compared to in-person training, video tutorials are strictly worse than an interactive lecture.

I’m an autodidact. No teacher can provide the density and velocity of information and knowledge the Internet, science papers and books can provide. I can’t watch a lecture at 2x speed if its live. I can’t cherry pick. I have to be at a certain place at a certain time when I might not be in the right headspace. Then add on top that’s it’s basically a crapshoot whether or not you get along with your teacher or not. I d…

> I can’t watch a lecture at 2x speed if its live. I can’t cherry pick.

If you have a 1:1 teacher you can just tell them what you already know and they can jump to the parts you don't. Much more efficient than skipping through a video for interesting snippets.

Re: Peter Naur's view of programming

#169
The article from Peter Naur is a must-read. And what it says is absolutely not limited to programming. It is a politically deep and important paper that applies to virtually every human activity that adds value.

I recommend reading this paper to all my computer science students.

I took the liberty to make a better formatted and easier to read PDF of it a while ago: https://pablo.rauzy.name/dev/naur1985programming.pdf

Re: Peter Naur's view of programming

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m an autodidact. No teacher can provide the density and velocity of information and knowledge the Internet, science papers and books can provide. I can’t watch a lecture at 2x speed if its live. I can’t cherry pick. I have to be at a certain place at a certain time when I might not be in the right headspace. Then add on top that’s it’s basically a crapshoot whether or not you get along with your teacher or not. I d…

> I can’t watch a lecture at 2x speed if its live. I can’t cherry pick. If you have a 1:1 teacher you can just tell them what you already know and they can jump to the parts you don't. Much more efficient than skipping through a video for interesting snippets.

I think 1:1 or even one to many teaching is amazing but more for the cutting edge stuff. It’s changing how you think more than what you know.
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