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I hate how programming has become just another business process

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Re: I hate how programming has become just another business process

#11

Post by Jtsummers »

If you're getting paid to do it, and you don't own the product/system being sold (as in, making a game you sell to customers), you owe your employer an explanation of what you're doing and why if asked. You're selling your time and skills in exchange for their money, which they want to turn into more money.

This question would get the same response from me if posed by an aerospace engineer in the context of making planes for Boeing versus a home-built ultralight aircraft or drone. Sure, you don't get the same control, and you have to explain your choices and efforts to your employer, because you're not doing the same thing in those two situations.

If you want to find joy in programming, you need to own the project or find a project and organization aligned with what brings you joy. I wouldn't get any joy out of making some b2b financial services system, but I would get money from it so probably wouldn't object. I'd clock out at 4pm or whenever my 8 hours were up every day. OTOH, I did enjoy making and testing safety critical systems for aircraft. I wouldn't do it as a hobby, but I wouldn't object to longer hours to try and get things working.

Re: I hate how programming has become just another business process

#12

Post by jfengel »

burntoutfire wrote: post #10
jfengel wrote: post #6

Does that give you any more sympathy for the artists who would rather be painting oils than designing yet another ad for hemorrhoid cream? Or poets who really don't want to be copy-editing your documentation? Most of us would rather be creating art than be beholden to crappy commercial interests. Most of us would rather be the one giving orders than taking them, or compromising our art to other people. We programmers…

> e still don't make as much as the one who brings in the seed money and keeps most of the profits, but because reasons we haven't been relegated to the barely-tolerated and barely-paid status of the people who write documentation or make our products attractive, no matter how good they are at it. I don't think it's lack of regulations that makes our salaries high (barring the sky-high wages at FAANG). For example, i…

It's definitely supply and demand, but it's not clear to me why the demands for programmers and "poets" are so out of whack. We have a collective notion that the work of the writers don't matter, and so we just collectively decide not to pay them very well, and they're forced to accept it.

Meanwhile, even pretty poor programmers can make a fair bit of money, rather than being priced out. But there are a ton of them, and honestly, there could be even more. Basic programming isn't that hard. Lots of people do it in high school, self-taught, and even more could do that given opportunity and encouragement.

I'm definitely enjoying it while it lasts. I've been expecting it to stop for three decades. I've been wrong the whole time and it looks like it will last the rest of my career.

But I'd really like to see us take a good long look at the whole thing. A lot of talent is going to waste. I'm happy to benefit, but wish others could, too.

Re: I hate how programming has become just another business process

#13

Post by burntoutfire »

jfengel wrote: post #12
burntoutfire wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> e still don't make as much as the one who brings in the seed money and keeps most of the profits, but because reasons we haven't been relegated to the barely-tolerated and barely-paid status of the people who write documentation or make our products attractive, no matter how good they are at it. I don't think it's lack of regulations that makes our salaries high (barring the sky-high wages at FAANG). For example, i…

It's definitely supply and demand, but it's not clear to me why the demands for programmers and "poets" are so out of whack. We have a collective notion that the work of the writers don't matter, and so we just collectively decide not to pay them very well, and they're forced to accept it. Meanwhile, even pretty poor programmers can make a fair bit of money, rather than being priced out. But there are a ton of them,…

Writing something in English is just easier that writing code that compiles and works. You can't bullshit a compiler, but you definitely can put a lot of bullshit into a Word document without anyone noticing (thus making your job a lot easier). That's why coding is harder, more demanding, requires more intelligence and work ethic. Hell, I've known pretty smart coders who lacked the work ethic and they quickly switched to scrum master or analyst roles. They're making less, but as one of them openly admitted, they barely do anything compared to the coders.

Re: I hate how programming has become just another business process

#14

Post by h-1 »

This is profoundly true. Programming largely used to be a crazy pile of GOTO statements and "bad code". I shake my fist at today's programming!

The wild west days of things can be crazy but fun. Then the crowds and tax collectors come, laws are made, and now these little atomized commits that stitch together APIs is "programming".

It makes me think of other areas of life. Most of us show up at the boring, overlegislated, agile test driven development phase of things. Maybe it is good to look for the wild roots of anything.

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