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HBO Max is failing the classic Tom and Jerry

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Re: HBO Max is failing the classic Tom and Jerry

#101
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Ethical/lawful or not I don't care" -me_me_me Parody? I'm not sure. Seems like an attitude I'm relatively happy isn't super common in society. If I make a book, I don't "owe you an effort" just cause you don't want to make it available in a format you'd like to consume. And that doesn't give you the right to steal it from me. Now certainly everyone should live under a set of guidelines, no one should be certain effo…

> If I make a book, I don't "owe you an effort" just cause you don't want to make it available in a format you'd like to consume. Of course you don't. > And that doesn't give you the right to steal it from me. First of all I am not stealing, you haven't lost anything. Secondly you not making effort to distribute your book means you don't care too much about selling your book now do you? Anyhow, that's comparing apple…

> First of all I am not stealing, you haven't lost anything.

So in the future when he provides you with the format you pirated you will purchase it? Despite having pirated it before?

Re: HBO Max is failing the classic Tom and Jerry

#102
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legally, no. Ethically...maybe? The United States does have a long tradition of allowing grey areas when rightsholders become unreasonable. Oftentimes these wind up being formalized as right-of-ways, easements, or other access rights. In the case of online streaming, its clear that the rightsholders are consolidated and engaged in monopolistic, anti-consumer behavior. Piracy is a natural response to that type of beha…

No one has a right to someone else's labor.

Intellectual property protections aren't self-evident or part of nature. They are a human creation that, in theory, exist to encourage innovation and increase prosperity. In almost all cases, intellectual property is based on previous intellectual property.

Whenever you create a work of art, or work of intellect, you are using the work of "someone else". The vast majority of stories, for instance, use plot devices and elements invented by other humans. IP laws don't necessarily protect these elements - to a large extent because they can't in practice - but they are used nonetheless without special consideration to "someone else's" labor (the inventor of such elements/plot devices).

Many of the arguments for extremely strong IP protections ignore that an enormous percentage of IP is acquired from elsewhere. While many authors add much value on top of these existing elements, we still have the problem of the appropriation of such elements without any authorization/compensation.

Just because the law protects YOUR additions to the (unprotected) work of others, don't think that your additions are that special. The protections from the law, including extent, duration and penalties are arbitrary and, as I said, not part of nature.

People do work based on ideas that are in the public domain. But the differentiation of public domain and non public domain is also a human creation. Why can't IP go into the public domain 15 minutes after they are created? The protection duration is arbitrary and in practice decided by large business lobbies (just see how they increased over time to the current unreasonable levels).

So while a lot of what is being discussed is indeed ILLEGAL, it doesn't mean that it is IMMORAL. I recommend that advocates for strong IP protections examine how much of what they are trying to protect is, indeed, uniquely theirs and not traceable to previous work.

Re: HBO Max is failing the classic Tom and Jerry

#103
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I make a book, I don't "owe you an effort" just cause you don't want to make it available in a format you'd like to consume. Of course you don't. > And that doesn't give you the right to steal it from me. First of all I am not stealing, you haven't lost anything. Secondly you not making effort to distribute your book means you don't care too much about selling your book now do you? Anyhow, that's comparing apple…

> First of all I am not stealing, you haven't lost anything. So in the future when he provides you with the format you pirated you will purchase it? Despite having pirated it before?

Yeah, well I have done similar thing.

I bought a games that I pirated in the past.

I am not saying piracy is great everyone should be doing it.

My argument is: I am sometimes lazy and tired after a long day. I want to watch a movie i heard was good. I can spend 15 mins trying to figure out where to watch it or I can pirate it after it doesnt come up in netflix search.

but i am not going to pay for 10 subscriptions just soo I can occasionally watch a show.

Re: HBO Max is failing the classic Tom and Jerry

#104

It all goes back to not owning you media. When you rent ("subscribe") and stream, it's not yours, and can be taken away for any reason, or no reason at all. For the last decade I've been buying up old DVDs and CDs of films and TV shows that I like from fleaBay, Goodwill, and elsewhere and archiving them in my own NAS for my personal use. It's astounding how much quality media has never made it to streaming. In my est…

My plan is to befriend a couple of you horders in 10 years.

Re: HBO Max is failing the classic Tom and Jerry

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fine. But its a hijack of a thread. I admitted my reasoning is not moralistically ethical or law abiding. My argument is that piracy is there for a reason. There was a huge dip in torrent usage at the dawn of Netflix, for a reason. The convenience of Netflix outweighed 'cost' of piracy. Now piracy is back up, why? Thats the reality of the world we are living in. The argument you linked is great and it makes se…

Yeah I understand where you're coming from, I just find that argument doesn't really hold up to scrutiny. For example, if instead of piracy we were talking about stealing from a brick and mortar store it wouldn't be right to do it just because it's possible and easy to get away with it (or because the store didn't provide convenient service, etc.). File sharing is different for lots of reasons (digital goods are non-…

> For example, if instead of piracy we were talking about stealing from a brick and mortar store

But we are not. That's shifting goalposts fallacy.

What about buying used DVD is that piracy? After all two parties watch a movie but movie maker made one sale?

> I think just saying it's okay because you don't care about corporate profit actually weakens the ability to persuade people with the underlying arguments which I think are good and I don't think it's an ethical position that really holds up. Thoughtful people that see only those arguments (or worse 'information wants to be free') come away with a stronger defense of existing copyright law.

That is why the very first line I am admitting that my position is out of pure lazyness calculation.

> I do think that companies should take it into account for pragmatic reasons and recognize that it's the real competition to not delivering high quality convenient service, but that's largely because it's not possible to enforce actual copyright law with the internet at scale - which is somewhat of a different issue.

I am of belief that piracy is great equalizer. A force that curbs infinite appetite of corporate overlord that would bleed us dry if they could. It makes particularly movie industry more customer friendly and more competitive.

> I don't think it's really hi-jacking the thread because I think the issue is so tightly coupled. I just didn't want to copy/paste my comment because that seemed like bad etiquette?

Actually it was hi-jacking. Imagine two people talk and you overhead them you cut in. Completely disregarding the actual discussion and drop your opinion in without addressing what was previously said.

Sure you could have dropped in that, but at least address why you think that is better argument and why you disagree with previous post. That is called a discussion and not stating your opinion. Hope that it make sense.

Re: HBO Max is failing the classic Tom and Jerry

#106
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one has a right to someone else's labor.

Intellectual property protections aren't self-evident or part of nature. They are a human creation that, in theory, exist to encourage innovation and increase prosperity. In almost all cases, intellectual property is based on previous intellectual property. Whenever you create a work of art, or work of intellect, you are using the work of "someone else". The vast majority of stories, for instance, use plot devices an…

Wouldn't that argument undermine all property protection? What if anything of ours is uniquely ours vs somewhat derivative? Tangible property is even more derivative, i.e. inheriting a house. Absolutely no creativity going on in that case, yet it is protected much more strongly than IP.

Re: HBO Max is failing the classic Tom and Jerry

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Libraries can solve issues 2 and 3 for those folks.

Depending on where you live and how good is your library selection, yes, and I do encourage people to do that. Growing in up in Brazil though, didn't have much luck at that time, finding things that I wanted. Edit: this was for books in Brazilian Portuguese. When I started focusing on books in English - to prepare to move to Canada - I bought Kindle books because otherwise, I would have to pay for international shipp…

If, say, create a book where the written content is not the whole experience I want to pass the reader, it's perfectly reasonable to withhold certain formats.

If I want readers to experience the size, weight, texture and smell as integral parts of the book, it should be my right to prevent others from putting my name on lesser experiences.

Re: HBO Max is failing the classic Tom and Jerry

#108
post #2

Similar shenanigans are the reason I cancelled Disney+. I’ll pay a monthly fee for your entire back library. Otherwise, no thanks. Also, what’s the ethical issue with pirating content that is not for sale? I’d love to see a copyright overhaul that formalized abandonware and extended it to back catalogs of film and music. That way, people could legally torrent everything currently missing from these streaming platform…

> Also, what’s the ethical issue with pirating content that is not for sale?

The ethical issue with piracy is that you can't expect to change behaviors or the laws if you merely circumvent them, and circumvent them without substantial risk of punishment.

Take the Civil Rights movement, for example. They disobeyed unjust laws in protest, but they succeeded in their cause because they were often punished for the disobedience. Being punished is a sine qua non of non-violent protest methods as pioneered by MLK, Ghandi, and Mandela. (Notably, all of whom started out believing in the necessity for violent protest, AFAIU.) If there was never any serious threat of punishment, especially for protesters (as opposed to authorities just letting it slide, and then reintroducing enforcement later) then we might still have many of the laws and norms the Civil Rights movement was working to rescind and change. It's difficult to convince people to change unjust laws; much easier to convince them to change unjust consequences.

In a way it comes back to what Socrates taught: you can't reasonably expect to make effectual changes in the law or politics without subjecting yourself to the consequences. And if you're a citizen, making effectual changes is an obligation.

The self-righteous justification for surreptitiously violating copyright as some sort of protest really bothers me. I'm not going to claim that I haven't ever knowingly violated copyright, and I certainly am not going to defend our overbroad copyright protections, but I'm not going to delude myself about why I'm doing something--purely out of self-interest. Doing something out of self-interest isn't per se unethical, but there is something dissonant when you do it knowing that you're technically violating a law that should be changed, and would be more likely to be changed, if everybody felt the pain, either through strict adherence to the law or open violation and consequent punishment.

Re: HBO Max is failing the classic Tom and Jerry

#109
I think the article nails it, they seem to be filtering out anything that might offend contemporary leftest values. A lot of the stuff from the 40s would never be produced today i.e. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZkcsIb2l3A or even https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAELs42aZt4 but I'd say that censoring it is akin to denying the holocaust -- if you pretend it didn't happen then you don't learn the lesson.

Nobody seems to censor the leprechauns or gangster characters. Disney seems to get a pass for an inventory of issues https://www.insider.com/moments-themes-in-disney-movies-that... - they would have nothing left if you filtered all their content for modern political correctness. What message does it send when Prince Charming always has to rescue the princess? And so on..

Re: HBO Max is failing the classic Tom and Jerry

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arguably, there's no obligation to make things available at all .

But there is demand, and in many times, social interest. I'very much in favor of some ruleset that compells the rights owner to either distribute something for reasonable prices[0], or make it available for redistribution and relinquish any distribution rights to it. This should apply to physical products as well - either sell it, or give blueprints to others. -- [0] - reasonable meaning commensurate with other produ…

I disagree. I think copyright lasts too long today but I think it’s completely fair if, for example, a photographer wants to not sell a certain picture until the copyright has expired.
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