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Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

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Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#251

I understand (and generally agree to) the arguments that people should be paid a living wage, and tipping after the transaction doesn't have any effect on an individual level. But I wonder what's the effect on service quality on general? Are there any studies on this? Asking because here in Germany, service is often terrible, at least in casual restaurants. Like it's not uncommon to spend more time waiting than eatin…

Why would you need to be seated? Casual restaurants in Europe are normally free to set wherever you want. The menus are normally at the table, waiter acknowledges you by offering drinks and by the time he's back you're ready to order food. I don't wanna assume but US customers seem very spoiled

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#252
post #112
post #9

Just do away with tips. It's a terrible and stupid system. If you want to do it as a customer, go ahead, but it should never be considered as part of the employee's compensation. If people aren't willing to do the job for the hourly wage alone with no tips, raise the wage until they are.

Tips are fundamentally broken. If you didn't know about tips, and someone offered you a job and said, "I'll pay you crap wages, but you can ask the customers for more money. Don't worry, they'll pay or their friends won't like them," you'd think it was a scam because it's such an obviously terrible deal. Tips are an awful way to incentivize good service. I'm neither qualified to judge my server's performance, and I'v…

> And because tips are everywhere now

As a european, I really don't think that's true.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've said it before, the only way to get out of the tipping culture is to stop tipping, and to continue to fight for a raised minimum wage. There's just no way around it, that's how some other countries got out of the tipping culture too. Shaming others who don't tip, and tipping when you go out, just contributes to the problem. If people understand that tipping is actually less of a thing, then the pressure will be…

I've worked as a waiter during my university time and tips were the best thing in the world for someone that did not need any real qualifications. My wage alone would have barely covered my expenses but with tips I paid all of my living costs and could put aside a bit for my future. It was a system I liked as an employee since even when there were few customers I had not to worry too much about getting laid off immed…

This reminds me of some old people in my country who say that communism was the best thing in the world, they had most things provided, they never had to worry about a job or having a place to live, the collapse of the communist government was the worst thing that has happened to them. Sure, there were some problems, maybe you couldn't buy a new car and only had oranges once a year and people elsewhere were going on holidays to the balearics while you had to content with the black sea if you were lucky and the local police station agreed to let you borrow a passport for a couple weeks, but the advantages overall outweigh the disadvantages. To them, people trying to change the system were the bad people - after all, communism REALLY worked well for them, and the winds of change came and the government-secured factory job or subsidized apartment, gas and electricity disappeared. World went to shit for them. Of course change was bad.

And yes, unfortunately the way to fix the tipping problem is to stop tipping. It will be miserable for people like yourself, but if you can't afford to live on a shitty non-tipping wage, you will leave and do something else. Your employer will run out of staff, or will get the worst staff on earth willing to work for a dollar an hour. Even if you decide to stay and live out of your car, you won't be happy. The restaurant will suffer because the staff won't care any more and it will start hitting the owners directly. So wages will increase. It's not rocket science. That's how unions are formed, that's how people revolt, that's how people start caring about the political side of things and finally make the change happen - they have to be unhappy about the current system first.

And it is a parasite system on some societies - I'm glad you're on the happy side of it, but the system needs to change anyway.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we talk about why service is astronomically better in the US than countries with very high worker protections and base wages like Denmark? I'm genuinely curious what you think the factors are in their difference because when I live in Denmark (as I do now) it feels like the waiter could give less of a s** whether the service is good or not whereas when I live in LA or NYC I feel like I am the golden child of thei…

> Can we talk about why service is astronomically better in the US than countries with very high worker protections and base wages like Denmark? I’m curious why ‘good service‘ is important for you? Have you worked a service job yourself? It’s long gruelling hours.

I could tell you many stories of my near-death scrapes with cars and cabs on my hour long bike ride to and from a tiny upscale restaurant in Manhattan, the blistered feet my girlfriend at the time would lovingly restore after 8 hours on my feet, and barely making rent on my tiny Brooklyn apartment I shared with 5 others while narrowly avoiding all manner of attempted thefts of the few discretionary dollars I had left.

When I choose to spend the money I have, I want a good experience. Service is a very big piece of that. My stepfather is a restaurant owner. He has always been the model of politeness. Articles have been written about the magic he'd pour out as maître d' in the early aughts. I learned from him the transformative impact good waitstaff can have on a dinner which is in many ways staged theater with you acting your best (honestly, dishonestly, you are still presenting a face of you) for your date you've held in enough esteem to offer this piece of your life to.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's cultural. You can get amazing service in other countries with little or no tipping culture. Sure, tipping may be an incentive as well, but most people I know won't go below 10% even if the service is terrible.

Which other countries with little to no tipping culture do you receive amazing service? Again, I am curious, not combative, so please take care if applying disdain to my comments.

In my opinion, I get amazing service in Denmark.

I would guess that what I consider to be amazing service isn't the same thing as what you would consider to be amazing service.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#256
post #251

I understand (and generally agree to) the arguments that people should be paid a living wage, and tipping after the transaction doesn't have any effect on an individual level. But I wonder what's the effect on service quality on general? Are there any studies on this? Asking because here in Germany, service is often terrible, at least in casual restaurants. Like it's not uncommon to spend more time waiting than eatin…

Why would you need to be seated? Casual restaurants in Europe are normally free to set wherever you want. The menus are normally at the table, waiter acknowledges you by offering drinks and by the time he's back you're ready to order food. I don't wanna assume but US customers seem very spoiled

I don't wanna assume but US customers seem very spoiled

If you think that expecting your first drinks order to be on the table within 20 minutes of walking in the door is being "spoiled" then you have pretty low standards.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#258
post #112
post #9

Just do away with tips. It's a terrible and stupid system. If you want to do it as a customer, go ahead, but it should never be considered as part of the employee's compensation. If people aren't willing to do the job for the hourly wage alone with no tips, raise the wage until they are.

Tips are fundamentally broken. If you didn't know about tips, and someone offered you a job and said, "I'll pay you crap wages, but you can ask the customers for more money. Don't worry, they'll pay or their friends won't like them," you'd think it was a scam because it's such an obviously terrible deal. Tips are an awful way to incentivize good service. I'm neither qualified to judge my server's performance, and I'v…

> A tip is not an act of generosity, either, you're paying a fee for a service rendered.

I once took a cab from my hotel in Zhengzhou (in central China) to the airport. It was during rush hour, so what would otherwise have been a 15-minute drive took over an hour. But the meter was obviously set to work only on distance travelled, and the fare seemed to me to be obscenely low for over an hour of work. I knew in China that tipping wasn't a thing, but having been raised in the US, I felt obligated to try in this situation. You should have seen the insulted look on her face. She was doing an honest job for an agreed-upon price, and didn't need any "largesse" from me.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we talk about why service is astronomically better in the US than countries with very high worker protections and base wages like Denmark? I'm genuinely curious what you think the factors are in their difference because when I live in Denmark (as I do now) it feels like the waiter could give less of a s** whether the service is good or not whereas when I live in LA or NYC I feel like I am the golden child of thei…

> Can we talk about why service is astronomically better in the US than countries with very high worker protections and base wages like Denmark? I’m curious why ‘good service‘ is important for you? Have you worked a service job yourself? It’s long gruelling hours.

I’m curious why ‘good service‘ is important for you?

Because the whole point of going out to eat instead of cooking at home is to have an enjoyable and stress free experience.

If it takes 20 minutes before someone asks what I want to drink, then 60 minutes to get food, you cannot answer any questions about what is on the menu and half the people get the wrong thing and then that completely ruins what should be an enjoyable experience.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm neither qualified to judge my server's performance, and I've got very limited and potentially misleading information about what a reasonable expectation is. I've got no idea what small crises my server had to deal with, or how other customers are treating him. That's ridiculous. If you're not qualified to judge the value of service to yourself then your probably not qualified for a lot of spending decisions in y…

> Reasonable expectation ? If you're a reasonable person you'll have reasonable expectation Tautology anyone?

My point exactly - what's reasonable is relative so if you consider yourself reasonable you should have reasonable expectations.
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