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Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#41

Post by BeetleB »

bagacrap wrote: post #13
imgabe wrote: post #9

Just do away with tips. It's a terrible and stupid system. If you want to do it as a customer, go ahead, but it should never be considered as part of the employee's compensation. If people aren't willing to do the job for the hourly wage alone with no tips, raise the wage until they are.

In the service industry there's a big difference between doing a job and doing a job /well/. Doing a job well is incentivized by tips.

Why do some jobs in the service industry have tips, and others do not?

I've yet to find someone who pays tips for excellent customer service in the big mall stores. I'm sure they exist, but almost no one does it, and this is acceptable. Why?

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#42

Post by sellyme »

refurb wrote: post #26
imgabe wrote: post #9

Just do away with tips. It's a terrible and stupid system. If you want to do it as a customer, go ahead, but it should never be considered as part of the employee's compensation. If people aren't willing to do the job for the hourly wage alone with no tips, raise the wage until they are.

I have a few friends in the service industry who prefer the tips model since the tips are often 200-300% of their base pay. If it switched to fixed hourly pay, they'd be taking a pay cut since there is no way their hourly pay would be $30/hr.

> If it switched to fixed hourly pay, they'd be taking a pay cut since there is no way their hourly pay would be $30/hr.

Why not? I live in a country with no tipping culture and we have no problem paying service industry workers this much.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#43

Post by aledalgrande »

jimmaswell wrote: post #37
aledalgrande wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then how comes you can get exceptional service in countries where there's no tips?

There is no culture of customer service at all in Europe from what I've heard, with apathetic to downright rude waitstaff being the norm. There's a chance it wouldn't be that way if there were tips.

Good sir, don't believe what you "have heard". Go to Europe and sit down at a Michelin starred restaurant in Italy. Then you will learn what exceptional service means.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#44

Post by BeetleB »

peteretep wrote: post #3

> The FTC alleges Amazon changed the way it paid drivers in late 2016, lowering the hourly rate and then used customer tips to make up the difference. Amazon continued to tell drivers they were receiving all of their tips, even after receiving hundreds of complaints from drivers, the agency said. How is this not simply theft? Why does this attract civil charges and not criminal ones?

Not arguing one way or other, but for many, say, restaurant workers, this practice is the norm in states that allow it (I believe that would be most states). The amount the owner is required to pay a worker is pretty low, as long as they have enough tips to hit the standard minimum wage.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#45

Post by xirbeosbwo1234 »

potiuper wrote: post #5

"Law precludes the agency from additionally fining the company." Does it also preclude criminal charges? This still seems to be theft of interest.

>This still seems to be theft of interest.

Forget "theft of interest", it's just plain theft. A thief doesn't get to apologize, give back what they stole, and then walk away. If you or I committed theft on this scale we'd be in prison for decades.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#46

Post by jojobas »

bagacrap wrote: post #16
naebother wrote: post #7

Always tip cash. > Amazon agreed to pay the regulator $61.7 million, the amount the FTC claims the company shorted its drivers in tips over a 2½ year period. Can the common man also get this kind of generous treatment from the law - just pay back what you stole and move on?

the legal fees and reputational damage make it not exactly free

In certain circles it's a reputational boost.

Consumer behaviour is not really affected by worker treatment reputation, Amazon warehouse working conditions are known to everyone.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#47

Post by sellyme »

jimmaswell wrote: post #33
imgabe wrote: post #9

Just do away with tips. It's a terrible and stupid system. If you want to do it as a customer, go ahead, but it should never be considered as part of the employee's compensation. If people aren't willing to do the job for the hourly wage alone with no tips, raise the wage until they are.

Tips: -Incentivize doing your job. I don't expect anything crazy and give 20% as long as you did the baseline properly. If you can't be assed to read or follow a two sentence delivery instruction that says how to find me then I'm not rewarding that. -Result in taking home much more money than otherwise in many cases, else the company still has to make up the difference to minimum wage but that almost never happens in…

> Incentivize doing your job

Surely keeping your job is a good incentive to do your job?

> Result in taking home much more money than otherwise

People are still willing to pay the same amount of currency for the same product and service.

> Let lower income people keep more of their pay, if cash

I don't find "this system is good because it enables tax fraud" to be a strong argument.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#48

Post by Noos »

sellyme wrote: post #42
refurb wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a few friends in the service industry who prefer the tips model since the tips are often 200-300% of their base pay. If it switched to fixed hourly pay, they'd be taking a pay cut since there is no way their hourly pay would be $30/hr.

> If it switched to fixed hourly pay, they'd be taking a pay cut since there is no way their hourly pay would be $30/hr. Why not? I live in a country with no tipping culture and we have no problem paying service industry workers this much.

Um..medium hourly income in the USA is $21 an hour or so. I live in a decently expensive state and skilled trades, managers, and various lower-tier technical people make $30 an hour, and that's double the state's upcoming minimum wage.

I really don't see how you pay them that much.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#49

Post by jimmaswell »

aledalgrande wrote: post #43
jimmaswell wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no culture of customer service at all in Europe from what I've heard, with apathetic to downright rude waitstaff being the norm. There's a chance it wouldn't be that way if there were tips.

Good sir, don't believe what you "have heard". Go to Europe and sit down at a Michelin starred restaurant in Italy. Then you will learn what exceptional service means.

A Michelin starred restaurant is one thing but what about the average place?

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#50

Post by sellyme »

Noos wrote: post #48
sellyme wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it switched to fixed hourly pay, they'd be taking a pay cut since there is no way their hourly pay would be $30/hr. Why not? I live in a country with no tipping culture and we have no problem paying service industry workers this much.

Um..medium hourly income in the USA is $21 an hour or so. I live in a decently expensive state and skilled trades, managers, and various lower-tier technical people make $30 an hour, and that's double the state's upcoming minimum wage. I really don't see how you pay them that much.

> I really don't see how you pay them that much.

But they're apparently already getting paid that much! Either people are drastically misrepresenting how much waitstaff take home in tips, or there's enough money in the economy to pay them that much.

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