Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#11

Post by darwinwhy » Thu, Feb 04, 2021, 3:53 AM UTC

peteretep wrote: post #3

> The FTC alleges Amazon changed the way it paid drivers in late 2016, lowering the hourly rate and then used customer tips to make up the difference. Amazon continued to tell drivers they were receiving all of their tips, even after receiving hundreds of complaints from drivers, the agency said. How is this not simply theft? Why does this attract civil charges and not criminal ones?

> when Amazon steals $62 million from its employees it's "misrepresenting drivers' tips", when Amazon employees steal $130,000 of products from Amazon it's a "theft ring"

~ https://twitter.com/CitationsPod/status/1356779651885133825

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#12

Post by shkkmo » Thu, Feb 04, 2021, 3:59 AM UTC

potiuper wrote: post #5

"Law precludes the agency from additionally fining the company." Does it also preclude criminal charges? This still seems to be theft of interest.

Afaik, the FTC is a civil agency and if criminal charges are warranted another agency handles bringing charges.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#13

Post by bagacrap » Thu, Feb 04, 2021, 4:04 AM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #9

Just do away with tips. It's a terrible and stupid system. If you want to do it as a customer, go ahead, but it should never be considered as part of the employee's compensation. If people aren't willing to do the job for the hourly wage alone with no tips, raise the wage until they are.

In the service industry there's a big difference between doing a job and doing a job /well/. Doing a job well is incentivized by tips.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#14

Post by jdavis703 » Thu, Feb 04, 2021, 4:04 AM UTC

peteretep wrote: post #3

> The FTC alleges Amazon changed the way it paid drivers in late 2016, lowering the hourly rate and then used customer tips to make up the difference. Amazon continued to tell drivers they were receiving all of their tips, even after receiving hundreds of complaints from drivers, the agency said. How is this not simply theft? Why does this attract civil charges and not criminal ones?

It’s not considered a big crime because crime is largely a social construct. For example the news is happy to hype stories about recurring car break ins, but is then quiet about wage theft and other white collar crimes.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#15

Post by peteretep » Thu, Feb 04, 2021, 4:06 AM UTC

jdavis703 wrote: post #14

peteretep wrote: post #3

> The FTC alleges Amazon changed the way it paid drivers in late 2016, lowering the hourly rate and then used customer tips to make up the difference. Amazon continued to tell drivers they were receiving all of their tips, even after receiving hundreds of complaints from drivers, the agency said. How is this not simply theft? Why does this attract civil charges and not criminal ones?

It’s not considered a big crime because crime is largely a social construct. For example the news is happy to hype stories about recurring car break ins, but is then quiet about wage theft and other white collar crimes.

> the news is happy to hype stories about recurring car break ins, but is then quiet about wage theft

That's clearly untrue, given the story we're talking about here.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#16

Post by bagacrap » Thu, Feb 04, 2021, 4:06 AM UTC

naebother wrote: post #7

Always tip cash. > Amazon agreed to pay the regulator $61.7 million, the amount the FTC claims the company shorted its drivers in tips over a 2½ year period. Can the common man also get this kind of generous treatment from the law - just pay back what you stole and move on?

the legal fees and reputational damage make it not exactly free

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#17

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Feb 04, 2021, 4:07 AM UTC

bagacrap wrote: post #13

imgabe wrote: post #9

Just do away with tips. It's a terrible and stupid system. If you want to do it as a customer, go ahead, but it should never be considered as part of the employee's compensation. If people aren't willing to do the job for the hourly wage alone with no tips, raise the wage until they are.

In the service industry there's a big difference between doing a job and doing a job /well/. Doing a job well is incentivized by tips.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#18

Post by latch » Thu, Feb 04, 2021, 4:07 AM UTC

bagacrap wrote: post #13

imgabe wrote: post #9

Just do away with tips. It's a terrible and stupid system. If you want to do it as a customer, go ahead, but it should never be considered as part of the employee's compensation. If people aren't willing to do the job for the hourly wage alone with no tips, raise the wage until they are.

In the service industry there's a big difference between doing a job and doing a job /well/. Doing a job well is incentivized by tips.

Your parent is talking about tipped minimum wage - a minimum wage that is lower for people who make at least X in tips.

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#19

Post by imgabe » Thu, Feb 04, 2021, 4:07 AM UTC

bagacrap wrote: post #13

imgabe wrote: post #9

Just do away with tips. It's a terrible and stupid system. If you want to do it as a customer, go ahead, but it should never be considered as part of the employee's compensation. If people aren't willing to do the job for the hourly wage alone with no tips, raise the wage until they are.

In the service industry there's a big difference between doing a job and doing a job /well/. Doing a job well is incentivized by tips.

You can also incentivize people by firing them when they don't do the job well, as every other industry does. Why are you even hiring people who aren't going to do the job well?

What kind of crappy attitude is that? "I know you hired me and you're paying me and I'm here to do this job, but I'm going to do it really poorly unless you pay me extra"

Re: Amazon shortchanged drivers $61.7M in tips

#20

Post by peteretep » Thu, Feb 04, 2021, 4:07 AM UTC

bagacrap wrote: post #13

imgabe wrote: post #9

Just do away with tips. It's a terrible and stupid system. If you want to do it as a customer, go ahead, but it should never be considered as part of the employee's compensation. If people aren't willing to do the job for the hourly wage alone with no tips, raise the wage until they are.

In the service industry there's a big difference between doing a job and doing a job /well/. Doing a job well is incentivized by tips.

> Doing a job well is incentivized by tips

This would be better described as "tips are _intended to_ incentivize doing a job well", as I'm not clear there's a strong relationship between tipping and performance.