Having done all three roles either formally or informally (after 15 years development) the key thing a product manager has to do is follow Steve Blanks advice and get out of the building. OK not in times of COVID but there has to be someone who actually talks to customers or potential customers in person and builds _qualitative_ opinions / insight into what really needs to be built and where the real opportunities ar…
> the key thing a product manager has to do is get out of the building. Well, no, that's the sales job. First being a product manager is different in every company. And second there is a lot of differences depending of the type of business you are working in. For example if you work in Saas b2b enterprise you can easily be a very good product manager and almost never meet the customers nor the users [1], because that…
Product Manager vs. Product Marketing Manager vs. Product Owner
51–60 of 122 posts
Re: Product Manager vs. Product Marketing Manager vs. Product Owner
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the key thing a product manager has to do is get out of the building. Well, no, that's the sales job. First being a product manager is different in every company. And second there is a lot of differences depending of the type of business you are working in. For example if you work in Saas b2b enterprise you can easily be a very good product manager and almost never meet the customers nor the users [1], because that…
I would say 1 salesperson in 20 has the ability, interest and influence to alter a product roadmap. The other 19 exist because of their competitive drive and ability to bang their head against a wall without losing enthusiasm.
Re: Product Manager vs. Product Marketing Manager vs. Product Owner
#53Re: Product Manager vs. Product Marketing Manager vs. Product Owner
#54No. This is not the authoritative model. It's written like this is what the industry has settled on. But you can design whatever model that you want as long as you're clear on "who actually has buck stops here decision making and accountability over those decisions".
For Scrum adherants...
If you are using Scrum (many claim to be using it but are actually using some variant of ScrumFall), there is a Product Owner role who has "buck stops here" responsibility in the team. The PO does a lot of the "Product Manager" (with revenue/KPI responsibility) and "Product Marketing Manager" (positioning/value based on customers) also. If you are going to have separated out people (Prod Mgr, Prod Mkr, PO), you must designate that the PO has the "buck stops here responsibility" in the Scrum team, and relegate the others to stakeholder roles who hold the PO accountable.
For us, we've done away with the separate roles and said that Product Owners are Product Managers. They have "buck stops here" responsibility. Stakeholders hold them to principles by asking challenging questions: "Are you maximizing value?" -> show us the empirical evidence, etc.
>> The Product Manager >> "These individuals are often referred to as mini CEOs of a product. They conduct customer surveys to figure out the customer’s pain and build solutions to address it. The PM also prioritizes what features are to be built next and prepares and manages a cohesive and digital product roadmap and strategy."
This is the Product Owner role essentially. If you have a separate Product Manager from a Product Owner, they should definitely not prioritize what features should be built next. Maybe at a very high level they are identifying a market need and saying "Hey there's something here, team - next quarter please figure this out". The PO is responsible for the roadmap, backlog and maximizing the value of the work from the Scrum team. All the Prod Mgr can really do is to be a good stakeholder, do the research, give lots of good external market inputs to the PO and hold the PO accountable for delivering value.
>> The Product Marketing Manager >> "The PMM communicates vital product value — the “why”, “what” and “when” of a product to intending buyers. He manages the go-to-market strategy/roadmap and also oversees the pricing model of the product. The primary goal of a PMM is to create demand for the products through effective messaging and marketing programs so that the product has a shorter sales cycle and higher revenue."
Yes and no. Because the PO is so close to the product, speaking to customers, getting feedback from customers from rapidly delivering iterations (again, assuming you are using Scrum(TM) correctly, and not the bastardized "scrum" where devs are relegated to code monkeys), the product positioning/messaging/value propositions and pricing model will naturally emerge from the Scrum team. The PMM as a stakeholder is helping to figure out the go to market strategy, etc, and execute on it in their own agile team.
Again, I stress that each organization can do whatever it wants. I just don't enjoy it when articles like this are referenced to as evidence for why X person's role should have Y responsibility, etc. It's teamwork. Everyone takes responsibility.
Re: Product Manager vs. Product Marketing Manager vs. Product Owner
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
For me the difference is stark. At my last three companies it worked like this: Product Manager is responsible for the product strategy and feature roadmap. They spend most of their focus on internal and external customers. They report up through Product leadership. Product Owner is part of the engineering squad. They spend most of their focus on the engineers building the product. The PO works on refinement, priorit…
Threads on this topic pop up on HN every few months. To me seems pretty clear that in most companies the structure of the product team seems fundamentally broken. I feel very sad for people who do not see the value in having a PO or a PM on their team. To use buzzywordy language, a PO is not supposed to micro manage the developers but to give them a framework and the freedom to move within it and to make sure the pro…
Product Management -> determine from the market what product should be created, with what priorities, what releases
Pricing could be either Product Marketing, or Product Management, or both.
Re: Product Manager vs. Product Marketing Manager vs. Product Owner
#56Having done all three roles either formally or informally (after 15 years development) the key thing a product manager has to do is follow Steve Blanks advice and get out of the building. OK not in times of COVID but there has to be someone who actually talks to customers or potential customers in person and builds _qualitative_ opinions / insight into what really needs to be built and where the real opportunities ar…
> the key thing a product manager has to do is get out of the building. Well, no, that's the sales job. First being a product manager is different in every company. And second there is a lot of differences depending of the type of business you are working in. For example if you work in Saas b2b enterprise you can easily be a very good product manager and almost never meet the customers nor the users [1], because that…
Re: Product Manager vs. Product Marketing Manager vs. Product Owner
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
That is never, ever going to work. I do think some companies have too many PMs, but eventually there needs to be someone driving actual product development and making business & customer focused decisions, if not for an individual team then at least at one level above. If an engineer or designer is doing that then you are just wasting their skills.
I agree completely. I was a lead engineer on a product in a situation where we did not have a real product owner or a project manager. While I could manage the team and organize work, I struggled massively to come up with well defined and focused features for us to work. I would spend lot of time talking with different customers and trying to move that into development, but I was losing so much time I could have spen…
To one of the broader points, in both my personal experience and what I see software PMs doing in my current non-PM role, they spend a lot of time talking to customers.
Re: Product Manager vs. Product Marketing Manager vs. Product Owner
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the key thing a product manager has to do is get out of the building. Well, no, that's the sales job. First being a product manager is different in every company. And second there is a lot of differences depending of the type of business you are working in. For example if you work in Saas b2b enterprise you can easily be a very good product manager and almost never meet the customers nor the users [1], because that…
If your product is B2B enterprise then your end users' delight at your UX might not matter very much, but you definitely want to understand the decision makers' interest in getting additional reporting/auditing tools and how much value [if any] they get from their staff being more accurate in using the tool...
Re: Product Manager vs. Product Marketing Manager vs. Product Owner
#59That reminds me of the time I was heading the Product Management department of a large company. We had so many discussion about what a Product Owner, Manager, Technical Product Manager is. Their role. Their responsibilities. Endless discussion with much feelings involved about respect, ownership and so on. Nowadays I am convinced that a great company just doesn't need any PMs. It is way better to empower the tech and…
And who empowers them if not the PM ? I mean in theory you could say that to get a product, you only need a designer and a developer. But you know the reality is different. This is not a hazard that most successful tech companies have PM (except Apple)
Re: Product Manager vs. Product Marketing Manager vs. Product Owner
#60That reminds me of the time I was heading the Product Management department of a large company. We had so many discussion about what a Product Owner, Manager, Technical Product Manager is. Their role. Their responsibilities. Endless discussion with much feelings involved about respect, ownership and so on. Nowadays I am convinced that a great company just doesn't need any PMs. It is way better to empower the tech and…
> It is way better to empower the tech and UX people And who empowers them if not the PM ? I mean in theory you could say that to get a product, you only need a designer and a developer. But you know the reality is different. This is not a hazard that most successful tech companies have PM (except Apple)
To your question: I think it is the role of management to empower the devs and UX people. To your point about Apple: Isn't it amazing that one of the or even the most successful company on this planet doesn't have any PMs?