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Coronavirus is in the air – there’s too much focus on surfaces

nature.com

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Re: Coronavirus is in the air – there’s too much focus on surfaces

#151

Post by betwixthewires »

Johnny555 wrote: post #140
betwixthewires wrote: post #93

The problem with this article is that it takes at face value the stated goals of the pandemic response: to slow the spread of coronavirus. And while that is a goal, it is not the top goal. If it could be, it probably would be. The main goal is to soothe the public. People aren't told to wipe surfaces because it reduces the spread, people are told to wipe surfaces because this is all people can do. People are told to…

which say on the side of the box that they do not protect against viruses As has been stated repeatedly by the CDC and others, the mask guidelines aren't meant to protect you from the virus, they are meant to protect others from you by reducing the viral laden droplets that you spread while breathing and talking. There's a reason why they are called "surgical masks", because those are the masks that surgeons wear to…

I understand this. They do not protect others against viruses from you either. My wording that you quoted was misstated on my part, that's the culprit here, but read the next box of masks you see.

And I know the CDC can't be directly blamed for this, but how many people do you know that wear masks because they don't want to get sick? Probably all of them, besides the ones that wear it so they don't get hassled in public. This is the subtle thing in the marketing (yes, marketing, they're not selling anything but it is the same process) encouraging you to wear masks. People might consciously know if you asked them that masks don't protect themselves, but in their lizard brain they're protecting themselves. People jogging alone or driving on their car alone wearing a mask aren't doing it to protect other people. If every advertisement telling people to wear masks explicitly reminded them that it does not protect them, a lot of people wouldn't bother to wear them.

Re: Coronavirus is in the air – there’s too much focus on surfaces

#153

Post by Gibbon1 »

mikeyouse wrote: post #130
timr wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CFR != IFR. A huge portion of infections in the US are never reported or detected. I can't believe people are still confusing these. Dividing fatalities by known cases is completely wrong, and is not the definition of IFR.

Just do the math though, 500k deaths (+ whatever number of deaths not reported as such) vs what proportion of cases are unreported.. 50%? 75%? Help me get to an IFR approaching 0.1%..

Estimated cases in the US is 60 million. 500,000 deaths gives an IRF of 0.8%. Which is close to what the Chinese reported a year ago.

Re: Coronavirus is in the air – there’s too much focus on surfaces

#154

Post by Gibbon1 »

rkhassen9 wrote: post #111
nlh wrote: post #9

I predict we’re going to look back at ourselves in a few years and find a few things particularly egregious, much as we look back at “smoking is good for your health!” ads from the 1950s: 1. Our early guidance that masks don’t help (because we needed to save the real masks for healthcare workers); and 2. Our collective obsession around Mar-Apr 2020 with surface disinfecting. The shortage on Clorox wipes, the obsessiv…

We were dealing with the unknown and with deadly consequences. The behavior was correct for the situation. And when we got better information, hopefully we adjusted.

Early on I tried to figure out what the correct precautions were and then decided that everything practical until further notice is the proper response.

A point is what about next time? Who knows what works for Covid19 might be worthless for the next pandemic.

Re: Coronavirus is in the air – there’s too much focus on surfaces

#155

Post by jkim1258 »

nikolay wrote: post #118
BenoitEssiambre wrote: post #96

It's been a year now, why can't I buy a N95 mask?

You can - on eBay! But prepare to pay $5+/piece (over $10 and even $20 for 3M ones). Meanwhile, supposedly, price gouging was supposed to be persecuted. There are lots of KN95 fakes, by the way. There are tons of KF94 authentic ones on Amazon.

Frankly, I've had too many issues with fake products on Amazon to trust masks being sold there

Re: Coronavirus is in the air – there’s too much focus on surfaces

#156

Post by mattkrause »

timr wrote: post #103
mattkrause wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like “defeasible”. It’s not deductively valid in the same way that modus tollens is, but it is a often a good heuristic: the authority wouldn’t be recognized as such if they weren’t often correct in their area of expertise. Thus, it’s fine to find an appeal “rationally compelling” as long as you bear in mind that the authority is also not infallible.

The reputation of an authority is not a rebuttal to an argument. It's simply a lazy way of of avoiding the argument by substituting the burden of proof to the identity of the authority.

Not in a formal, deductive way but it’s not obviously wrong to initially give an authority a bit of credence.

In this particular case, you brought up Bhattacharya‘s credentials. If another plausible expert disagrees with him, we’re at worst back to where we started; the fact that there’s a consensus he’s wrong, rather than just two dueling authorities, pushes back even harder.

Re: Coronavirus is in the air – there’s too much focus on surfaces

#157

Post by nikolay »

snypher wrote: post #136
nikolay wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can - on eBay! But prepare to pay $5+/piece (over $10 and even $20 for 3M ones). Meanwhile, supposedly, price gouging was supposed to be persecuted. There are lots of KN95 fakes, by the way. There are tons of KF94 authentic ones on Amazon.

>KF94 Can we please have a global standard on masks already?

Yeah, I know.

Re: Coronavirus is in the air – there’s too much focus on surfaces

#158

Post by irrational »

_jal wrote: post #22
mordechai9000 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like people have been saying this from the beginning. But no one can say for certain that there is little or no fomite risk, and hand washing and surface cleaning gives people something to do that helps them feel like they are in control.

So one way people lose my trust is to tell me to do useless things for my perceived psychological benefit. I have both changed doctors and jobs for this reason. Treat me like a child and you're out of my life.

I’ve got to be honest, that does sound rather childish on your part.

Re: Coronavirus is in the air – there’s too much focus on surfaces

#159

Post by nikolay »

jkim1258 wrote: post #155
nikolay wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can - on eBay! But prepare to pay $5+/piece (over $10 and even $20 for 3M ones). Meanwhile, supposedly, price gouging was supposed to be persecuted. There are lots of KN95 fakes, by the way. There are tons of KF94 authentic ones on Amazon.

Frankly, I've had too many issues with fake products on Amazon to trust masks being sold there

There are counterfeit N95s on Amazon, too. I think the Korean ones from [0] are the most legit. They sell them on Amazon, too, and they have nice packaging, which is hard to counterfeit as it's too much work and requires quality details. They also have non-certified ones, which seems pretty good, too. They fit well, and don't touch your lips, i.e. the mask doesn't get wet unlike the surgical ones. My favorite is Gerson 2130 N95 I managed to buy on eBay last February for $2/pcs. They are cupped, they don't touch your mouth, and leave space, and have larger filter area and are easier to breathe without vents. They don't leak air either. I use them for at least 16 hours a mask without deterioration - expect the rubber bands, which are the worst part. My other favorite is Moldex 4800 N95 [1], but I buy them at nearly $10/pcs, and they are rare. They last the longest, fit perfectly without much need for adjusting via metal bands, can be taken off and simply hang on your neck, and their lace is adjustable plus they look very cool.

In other words, we do have great technology here in America - probably the best respirators on the planet. I'm not sure why 1 year later we still can't produce enough and I see all medical stuff outside of COVID-19 units wearing plain surgical mask!

BTW, I did manage to buy FFP3 on eBay recently for less than N95s (most people don't search form them, I guess) - they are almost the equivalent of N99, i.e. they offer even greater protection than N95. So, try that, too.

[0]: https://soomlab-korea.com/

[1]: https://www.moldex.com/product/4800-n95-airwave-pleated-easy...

Re: Coronavirus is in the air – there’s too much focus on surfaces

#160

Post by divbzero »

mordechai9000 wrote: post #8
hanklazard wrote: post #2

Anecdotally, as someone who works in a clinic where we test for COVID-19 much of the day (and have multiple positive patient tests per day), I can tell you that this editorial certainly seems correct. Even with our caution with PPE, I’m certain that we would have had a major outbreak among staff over the past year if this thing was transmitting efficiently via fomite—it’s just too difficult to use perfect form 100% o…

It seems like people have been saying this from the beginning. But no one can say for certain that there is little or no fomite risk, and hand washing and surface cleaning gives people something to do that helps them feel like they are in control.

Setting up better ventilation also helps people feel in control and actually makes a bigger difference.
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