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Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

theguardian.com

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Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#91

Post by kenneth »

vaduz wrote: post #74
delecti wrote: post #18

Is this necessary? This article from 2008 seems to indicate that his sentence had been rescinded. https://web.archive.org/web/20111230060902/http://www.telegr... Also, it looks like he was convicted under the Holy Roman Empire, which doesn't really exist anymore. I'm not sure who there is to overturn his conviction.

Holy Roman Empire is not a factor - Dante was found guilty and exiled under the laws of the Republic of Florence. Ultimately Italy has jurisdiction as the successor state of Florence -> Tuscany -> Sardinia -> Italy after 1861...

Sidenote: are you from Lichtenstein?

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#92

Post by idclip »

delecti wrote: post #18

Is this necessary? This article from 2008 seems to indicate that his sentence had been rescinded. https://web.archive.org/web/20111230060902/http://www.telegr... Also, it looks like he was convicted under the Holy Roman Empire, which doesn't really exist anymore. I'm not sure who there is to overturn his conviction.

I believe it is for him ... him and by association his family seem to emotionally need it. Let him Free himself from his psychological prison - even if imagined ... most of us use sadism to try and act out our unconscious violence/justice fantasies .. to use legal means is a step up. Non violent ... i (if in may be so bold as to attribute any significance to my own opinion) commend it!

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#93

Post by hansjorg »

zabzonk wrote: post #21
barrucadu wrote: post #8

What's the point in pardoning dead people?

Lots of people seemed to appreciate Alan Turing (and lots of other people) being pardoned for something that should never have been a crime in the first place. Basically, it's a very concrete sign of how we want our society to be now.

Couldn't it also be interpreted as a whitewashing of the people and institutions that were guilty of condemning him?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding a 'pardon', but it sounds like the state is saying, 'what you did was wrong, but we forgive you' when what it should be saying is 'we were wrong to condemn you'.

The whole ordeal has an air of 'might is always right'.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#94

Post by gattilorenz »

edgyquant wrote: post #89
skissane wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, it looks like he was convicted under the Holy Roman Empire, which doesn't really exist anymore. I'm not sure who there is to overturn his conviction. When Dante was convicted in 1302, Florence was the Republic of Florence. The Republic of Florence was subject to the Holy Roman Empire, but still remained a distinct legal jurisdiction (like a state.) The Republic of Florence was replaced by the Grand Duchy of T…

As a side note the unifications of Italy and Germany are fascinating history and the culture that emerged due to them is also likely the reason those are the two most famous historical fascist nations (and why it was born in those places.) The nationalism required to (and built up for the purpose) unify the countries gave rise to ultra nationalism as generations of wanting to have a greater nature built a population…

I like this explanation very much, I just don't know if I can agree with it. If it's taken from a historian or you have any in-depth references, I would be happy to read more about it!

Big reasons why fascism was born in Italy was the counter-revolutionary movement as a response to the big socialist movement and the disastrous social and economical situation after WWI, which seem equally common in Germany but also in other Fascist countries (Portugal, Spain). My guess is that we don't remember those as much mostly because they remained neutral in WWII, so there was no propaganda about them.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#95

Post by blue1 »

edgyquant wrote: post #89
skissane wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, it looks like he was convicted under the Holy Roman Empire, which doesn't really exist anymore. I'm not sure who there is to overturn his conviction. When Dante was convicted in 1302, Florence was the Republic of Florence. The Republic of Florence was subject to the Holy Roman Empire, but still remained a distinct legal jurisdiction (like a state.) The Republic of Florence was replaced by the Grand Duchy of T…

As a side note the unifications of Italy and Germany are fascinating history and the culture that emerged due to them is also likely the reason those are the two most famous historical fascist nations (and why it was born in those places.) The nationalism required to (and built up for the purpose) unify the countries gave rise to ultra nationalism as generations of wanting to have a greater nature built a population…

The Italian national identity is rather weak compared to other European nations. Metternich famously quipped that “‘Italy’ is a geographic expression”, and it is still true today to some extent.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#96

Post by peteretep »

wahern wrote: post #85
peteretep wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However many is politically expedient. China, in particular, has an exceptionally long memory.

Did China have a legal system that made the emperor accountable to any temporal authority? (As a legal matter, not simply a practical one.) In the received political systems of the West, authority has at least been nominally shared for millennia, albeit across varying dimensions and with brief lapses into absolute rule. For example, while as a practical matter the Roman Catholic Pope's role during the Holy Roman Empi…

"Imperial China, which accounts for most of the past 2000 years of mainland Chinese political history" is political theatre.

> China was politically divided during multiple periods in its history, with different regions ruled by different dynasties. These dynasties effectively functioned as separate states with their own court and political institutions. Political division existed during the Three Kingdoms, the Sixteen Kingdoms, the Northern and Southern dynasties, and the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms periods, among others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynasties_in_Chinese_history

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#97

Post by imgabe »

Talanes wrote: post #86
imgabe wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Empty gestures like this do not hold any one accountable. The people responsible for whatever injustice occurred are long dead and there is nothing you can do to them. This is a waste of time and energy that could be better spent improving life for people who are alive today in some tangible way. Is this going to feed someone who's hungry? Shelter someone who's homeless? Do anything that will make any actual differen…

>Is this going to feed someone who's hungry? Shelter someone who's homeless? Do anything that will make any actual difference in the life of any living person? No? Then why are we wasting time on it? I don't really understand the point of inquiries like this. Obviously you are here "wasting" time that could be spent on those activities as well, and yet you (rightfully) aren't hostile toward yourself for it.

There is time that you can spend in productive endeavors and there is time for rest and relaxation. If you're going to work at something, work at something useful. If you're going to occupy the time and energy of a government, occupy it with something that is helpful to the people being governed.

Sure, I'll spend time faffing about and commenting on HN, but I don't think that Congress needs to pass a resolution about it.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#99

Post by notorandit »

The greatness of Dante is not even scratched by that conviction. He was a politician, he knew how hard politics can hit people, as seen during the Pazzi conspiracy events (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pazzi_conspiracy). He knew, nonetheless he went on with his political beliefs.

So I think that all those actions are just a form of marketing. They will succeed. None would keep on saying Dante was really a corruption man, provided that anyone ever did after 14th century. None will ease his struggling once banished away from his beloved Florence. None can scrap messer Durante de li Alighieri greatness, as he, himslef, "built a(nother) monument lasting longer than any bronze will".

This year Florence is going to celebrate Dante, as well as Ravenna. It's 7 centuries that Florence is claiming back Dante's remains. But nothing has been done against that conviction. Nothing in 700 years.

Let Dante rest in peace and bring back his masterpieces of literature and politics back in schools. The world will be a little better.

Re: Dante's descendant seeks to overturn poet's 1302 corruption conviction

#100

Post by notorandit »

blue1 wrote: post #95
edgyquant wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a side note the unifications of Italy and Germany are fascinating history and the culture that emerged due to them is also likely the reason those are the two most famous historical fascist nations (and why it was born in those places.) The nationalism required to (and built up for the purpose) unify the countries gave rise to ultra nationalism as generations of wanting to have a greater nature built a population…

The Italian national identity is rather weak compared to other European nations. Metternich famously quipped that “‘Italy’ is a geographic expression”, and it is still true today to some extent.

Just like Austria was. Just a geographic expression that acquired some political meaning at a certain point in time.

The word "Italia" dates back to before Rome was not even a town. It used to be the name given to all those populations living in the central and southern part of the peninsula because of their habit to worship the "vitello" (calf) or to breed calfs.

Before becoming a politically united nation, they used to speak the very same language from Sicily to Piedmont, from Veneto to Sardinia. "Italia" was a geographic expression only for the blinds.

America has been named after Amerigo (Americo) Vespucci, the Italian explorer who recognized it was actually as a brand new world. And so on.

Yes, Italy doesn't seem to be that united today. The same happens to Spain, the United Kingdom and even the USA sometimes show cracks in the union between the two coasts...

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