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SpaceX SN9 Explodes on Landing

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Re: SpaceX SN9 Explodes on Landing

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but in real life they are not necessarily landing in the same spot the same day to be reused again. They could have multiple replacement boosters. Regardless, I have no problem with the booster return design unless it induces reckless danger to human life. The explosion is not a positive data.

Given two options 1. People doing analysis and hoping to check everything through engineering rigor and (hopefully) good assumptions 2. Test early and often, learning along the way until many positive tests have proven the system I'd prefer 2. Look at systems like SLS to see the schedule results of (1). No people were put on Falcon launches until almost 100 successful launches. I imagine a similar situation for StarS…

Don't get your hopes up. Since it is rotating on an axis while moving and twice, it has a huge degree of freedom for failure.

Even if successfully returns 100 times, any untested change to its payload can change the parameters which are apparently unknown because they have not used any fancy simulation.

Good luck. I will be watching and ready to say I told you so. The staff could be absolute geniuses by they will not be able to foresee all the unexpected results.

Re: SpaceX SN9 Explodes on Landing

#162
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of American rockets failed, especially early on! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13qeX98tAS8

Why is SpaceX making the same mistakes 70 years later?

I don't recall NASA ever doing a rocket landing so I'm not sure which mistakes you are seeing repeated.

Re: SpaceX SN9 Explodes on Landing

#164
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as technicians, I've always felt sad for the two Space Shuttle technicians who died in 1981 after entering a nitrogen-filled engine compartment (John Bjornstad and Forrest Cole).

It's very sad but it's not a bad way to go. I was a nuclear plant supervisor for about 20 years. One day the temp started to increase in the control room. The 3 AC units were behind the control room so I headed there to check on things. Another guy said he'd go with me. These things are as big as locomotives. Well while we were in the room a refrigerant relief valve lifted with a huge roar. Turns out, amazingly, the…

"But what if we vent the toxic gas into the place where you go to see if there's a problem with the toxic gas..."

Re: SpaceX SN9 Explodes on Landing

#165
Feynman on SpaceX’s “Big Bang” design approach. I don’t think he would have been a fan:

The usual way that such engines are designed (for military or civilian aircraft) may be called the component system, or bottom-up design. First it is necessary to thoroughly understand the properties and limitations of the materials to be used (for turbine blades, for example), and tests are begun in experimental rigs to determine those. With this knowledge larger component parts (such as bearings) are designed and tested individually. As deficiencies and design errors are noted they are corrected and verified with further testing. Since one tests only parts at a time these tests and modifications are not overly expensive. Finally one works up to the final design of the entire engine, to the necessary specifications. There is a good chance, by this time that the engine will generally succeed, or that any failures are easily isolated and analyzed because the failure modes, limitations of materials, etc., are so well understood. There is a very good chance that the modifications to the engine to get around the final difficulties are not very hard to make, for most of the serious problems have already been discovered and dealt with in the earlier, less expensive, stages of the process.

The Space Shuttle Main Engine was handled in a different manner, top down, we might say. The engine was designed and put together all at once with relatively little detailed preliminary study of the material and components. Then when troubles are found in the bearings, turbine blades, coolant pipes, etc., it is more expensive and difficult to discover the causes and make changes. For example, cracks have been found in the turbine blades of the high pressure oxygen turbopump. Are they caused by flaws in the material, the effect of the oxygen atmosphere on the properties of the material, the thermal stresses of startup or shutdown, the vibration and stresses of steady running, or mainly at some resonance at certain speeds, etc.? How long can we run from crack initiation to crack failure, and how does this depend on power level? Using the completed engine as a test bed to resolve such questions is extremely expensive. One does not wish to lose an entire engine in order to find out where and how failure occurs. Yet, an accurate knowledge of this information is essential to acquire a confidence in the engine reliability in use. Without detailed understanding, confidence can not be attained.

A further disadvantage of the top-down method is that, if an understanding of a fault is obtained, a simple fix, such as a new shape for the turbine housing, may be impossible to implement without a redesign of the entire engine.

The Space Shuttle Main Engine is a very remarkable machine. It has a greater ratio of thrust to weight than any previous engine. It is built at the edge of, or outside of, previous engineering experience. Therefore, as expected, many different kinds of flaws and difficulties have turned up. Because, unfortunately, it was built in the top-down manner, they are difficult to find and fix. The design aim of a lifetime of 55 missions equivalent firings (27,000 seconds of operation, either in a mission of 500 seconds, or on a test stand) has not been obtained. The engine now requires very frequent maintenance and replacement of important parts, such as turbopumps, bearings, sheet metal housings, etc. The high-pressure fuel turbopump had to be replaced every three or four mission equivalents (although that may have been fixed, now) and the high pressure oxygen turbopump every five or six. This is at most ten percent of the original specification. But our main concern here is the determination of reliability.

Re: SpaceX SN9 Explodes on Landing

#166
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually it is the same situation. The launch was fine. What blew it up is something nobody has attempted before.

Never attempted what? Relight an engine? Engines are routinely re-lit, especially on upper stages, yet Space-X gets it wrong with regularity. The Russians and Arianespace do it just fine.

Saying SpaceX gets it wrong regularly is LITERALLY false. SpaceX Falcon 9 is fully qualified for all DoD Orbits and has reached highest qualification for NASA Scientific Missions and Human mission for. All require demonstration of reliably relight with incredibly high reliability.

In fact, in over 100 flights, SpaceX did not have a single failure of a Second Stage engine not starting or not re-lighting. This is unlike Arianespace who just had a failure when they tried to start an engine on one of their upper stages.

Outside of that Merlin is easily the engine that can be re-lit more then any other on the planet and its not close.

This however is a non-commercial prototype, where they are testing new technologies. Its a completely new engine of a type that has never flown before and is not finished developing. The vehicle has been newly designed and it does things no other vehicle has done before in a way no other vehicle has done before.

You honestly just sound like an incredibly petty hater. I can grantee you that Russia and Europe have plenty of issues with engine starting on their development engine.

Re: SpaceX SN9 Explodes on Landing

#167
Is this a viable landing strategy in the long run? Both SN8 and SN9 landings have ended in total fatalities.

What happens if the landing happens to occur during a 50 mph wind gust, etc. If this maneuver isn't designed to be 100% fault tolerant maybe they need to be thinking about an emergency eject?

I like the simplicity of the Starship design. How much extra weight would a nosecone eject + parachute add?

Re: SpaceX SN9 Explodes on Landing

#168
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Downvoting again? Rather than articulate a response?

I was confused by "Russia didn't beat US into space" - you probably meant "to the Moon" (manned flights), while USSR had quite a few space firsts.

No, I meant that the above response calling the other user wrong is wrong itself. The USSR, had it not had to fight a cold war against the US, could very well have been a much better system not just for space flight, but for a way to structure and run society in general.

But yet, if I say this, I will be immediately downvoted because if I suggest that anything other than the established order in the US is the best system, the powers that be as well as the indoctrinated individuals that frequent this place would rather just shut that conversation up than to engage it meaningfully.

Re: SpaceX SN9 Explodes on Landing

#170
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I though they pump it with fuel shortly before start?

Not sure why you got downvoted. When talking about 'explode on the pad' it usually refers a rocket blowing up right when the engines lights up before it lifts off. Or alternatively during fuelling, SpaceX had that issue during Amos-6.

Oh! I thought SN9 referred to the other rocket and imagined something like a chain explosion after the 'landing'... Thanks!
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