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Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

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Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#391
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I for one prefer the multiple "weird" clipboards in X.

I'm guessing you prefer the selection "clipboard" and the primary clipboard. There are a couple more clipboards that nobody uses. I agree the selection is sometimes handy, but I've accidentally hit the middle button where I didn't mean to just enough times that I'm ready to give it up. I rarely use them to hold two different things.

I use SELECTION and PRIMARY all the time

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, this happened before with pulseaudio, it was not ready and for years people would recommend to remove it, so the leason is not replace something that works now with something that is shiny but might work next year. I also think NVIDIA had a role in this default display issue, Ubuntu has to use something that actually works on all hardware combinations,competent users can install and try a Wayland implemen…

There are still people who uninstall pulseaudio, because "bloat" and then harass authors of audio applications to support their snowflake system. The forced PA brought some pain. but it forced swift improvement in audio drivers. Without it, we would still have half-buggy drivers that do not really work. Regarding Nvidia: all distributions that switched to Wayland default switched that only for supported hardware, so…

I still think is terrible for the users but probably great for some developers. So you would force the casual user that has no issue with X to suffer so the Wayland and GNOME/KDE developers would hear better the pain and fix the bugs and add the missing features. This is the job of bleeding edge distros to offer you the latest bugs and features.

I understand that when you work on your free time you want to work on shiny stuff that maybe you created and not on someone else old code, but for good results we see all the time that serious money need to be spend and developers need to be made to work on users feedback and not on what they like. Red Hat is pushing this, they have the money so they need to find more competent developers and do it right.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#393
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people who would greatly benefit from not needing to maintain it shout from the rooftops that it is dead because they wish it was already so. In fact its probably be mainstream for another 10-15 years and existing for another 25. Look how long it took to sort of but not really kill python 2. Thus the choice today is actually X vs Wayland because those are the 2 choices that can provide a functional desktop at thi…

And the developers have already left. When using gnome wayland is already the default in most major distributions already or have been announced for the next major version (such as ubuntu 21.04). I don't know about KDE more than that they are making progress. If they within a few years make the same transition then pretty much every single default installation will be on wayland. A few moments after that XWayland wil…

Maybe so but being the most popular option made Microsoft some money it never actually made it very good. In all honesty Gnome + Fedora + Wayland is a mediocre work compared to windows. At that point the only reason to use linux is cost and given the cost of a license it really isn't a very good one.

I wont feel bad about running a niche distro or even a different OS any more than I feel bad about picking Linux over windows in 2003. There is no accounting for taste and there are probably more people listening to Britney Spears than Beethoven. Its OK if you want to be involved with pop music there is money in it and it still requires the same skills to produce good sound regardless of the artist.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Give it some time. With the way sway and wlroots are developed, someone will create a proper high level framework-to-write-a-WM one day and we'll get all those experiments on wayland too.

One day. While today it's easy to write one in X and you don't have all the compatibility issues talked about in the article and up and down this thread.

And that's fine. Write one for X if you want to do it now. Some things will come earlier than others.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#396
post #382
post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a rather standard 27" 4K display of which there are several on the market.

That would have way less PPI. I have 24" 4K display that already has less than 200 ppi. Thats why I am interested which 4k display would reach close to 300, if that wasn't just a typo.

3840×2160 at 275ppi would be a 16″ display.

√(3840²+2160²)÷275 ≅ 16

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#397
post #19

> Wayland solves no issues I have This is a common sentiment, but it is kind of funny. Because software engineers working for companies will know the struggle of trying to justify reducing technical debt, improving security practices, etc. but fail to see why these things are useful to them personally when the tables turn. Wayland indeed “breaks a lot of shit” but it’s not an accident or done due to incompetence. Als…

> moving away from Xorg as a display server really needs to happen eventually

"It has to happen because it has to happen" is classic logical fallacy anti pattern.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#398

I don't get why everyone gets so defensive for Wayland. It's a fact that a lot of things still do break for users if they switch, without existing alternatives or workarounds. Yes, Xorg is now legacy, outdated, insecure, and does too much. But what wayland did was to replaced one functionality of Xorg, without offering alternatives to other functionalities. Which is good, I guess, it has a clear and focused responsib…

>I don't get why everyone gets so defensive for Wayland

Red Hat blogger marketing budget.

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#399

I don't get why everyone gets so defensive for Wayland. It's a fact that a lot of things still do break for users if they switch, without existing alternatives or workarounds. Yes, Xorg is now legacy, outdated, insecure, and does too much. But what wayland did was to replaced one functionality of Xorg, without offering alternatives to other functionalities. Which is good, I guess, it has a clear and focused responsib…

The biggest roadblock and catch22 is nvidia support. Developers using nvidia can't use wayland and hence can't contribute to better compositors as there is no incentive for themselves.

Statistics say nvidia has around 20% global marketshare and for gamers it's up to 80%. My guesstimate is developers are somewhere in the middle there so you are looking at 50% of all developers that can't use wayland themselves. How is that ever going to make the compositor ecosystem catch up.

Luckily Nvidia announced support earlier this month so hopefully this stalemate will soon end. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26004651

Re: Wayland is not ready as a 1:1 compatible Xorg replacement just yet

#400
post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would have way less PPI. I have 24" 4K display that already has less than 200 ppi. Thats why I am interested which 4k display would reach close to 300, if that wasn't just a typo.

3840×2160 at 275ppi would be a 16″ display. √(3840²+2160²)÷275 ≅ 16

Indeed. Now the question is: where do you get a 16" 4k display for $300? As I like displays with high resolution, I find it very disappointing that 4k displays with 150 ppi and less are plentiful, but it is difficult to find anything with 200 ppi or more. Even at 24" you just barely get 200 ppi and you are lucky if you get such a display.
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