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India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi

bbc.co.uk

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Re: India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi

#431

Post by dang »

webmobdev wrote: post #428
dang wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't post political, nationalistic, or ideological flamewar comments to HN. It's not what this site is for, regardless of which side people are battling for or how right they feel it is. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I get what you are saying, but this was a submission on political protests and the government's somewhat repressive measures against it - so it is hard to discuss it without politics .... perhaps this submission should have been removed in and not allowed to gain traction in the first place? Can I flag such such submissions that have a political undertone?

It's not a question of discussing it without politics, but discussing it without flamewar. That may not be easy, because people quickly get angry and attack each other, but it's definitely doable, and that's the bar that political discussions on HN need to clear.

The question of how to moderate politics on HN is a complex one because political stories are mixed: some are on-topic and some are off-topic. We can't exclude them all, but we can't include them all either. It depends on which stories contain significant new information and can support curious conversation. For more about this, see https://hn.algolia.com/?query=political%20overlap%20by:dang&.... Some good places to start are these threads:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21607844

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22902396

Re: India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi

#432

Post by dang »

hesarenu wrote: post #420
dang wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We certainly intend to and try to apply the rules consistently, but the problem is that we can't come close to seeing everything that gets posted here. If you see a post that ought to have been moderated but hasn't been, the likeliest explanation is that we didn't see it. You can help by flagging it or emailing us at hn@ycombinator.com. One thing's clear: political/nationalistic/religious flamewar is not ok on HN reg…

I don't see any flagging link. I am not for or against, just wanted to point out the inconsistencies. I can't anyway flag, so would stay away from those threads.

You can flag as much as anyone can; the karma limit for that is only 31. To flag a comment, though, you need to click on its timestamp to go to its page. See https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html#cflag.

Re: India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi

#433

Post by dang »

srean wrote: post #421
dang wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We certainly intend to and try to apply the rules consistently, but the problem is that we can't come close to seeing everything that gets posted here. If you see a post that ought to have been moderated but hasn't been, the likeliest explanation is that we didn't see it. You can help by flagging it or emailing us at hn@ycombinator.com. One thing's clear: political/nationalistic/religious flamewar is not ok on HN reg…

If you look at my comment history think I have stuck to facts and been impersonal. Only transgression was when allegations were made by your parent poster that I called a million Hindu's a terrorist. That's a ridiculous and defamatory claim. I think I am allowed to ask for clarifications or contest it when words are put in my mouth

You haven't just stuck to facts and been impersonal—you perpetuated the flamewar along with others. For example, swipes like "Yeah keep spreading lies" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25979836), "You are just trying to avoid answering" (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25979695), and so on, are completely unacceptable here.

It's all too easy to assume that you're following the rules when you aren't—we all suffer from this, because we have our own good intentions in mind when commenting. But those intentions don't communicate themselves, and when you're arguing, your comments are likely to come across as 10x more aggressive (if not 100x!) as they felt to you.

It's as if, when sparring, people underestimate how hard their punches are. You don't feel it, but the other person sure does—and then they land a punch back that feels (to them) like it's about equal, but feels to you like it's 10x harder—and suddenly there's a brawl in which everyone feels like the other person started the conflict and escalated it, while they themselves are merely reacting. In reality, both are doing it, and both are subject to the same cognitive bias that makes it feel like we're the innocent one and they're the guilty one.

For this reason it's super important to err on the side of scrupulously editing swipes and aggressive language out of your comments, especially on divisive topics. As the guidelines say: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Even if your intent is good, the burden is on you as an internet commenter to disambiguate your intent for the reader.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

Re: India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi

#434

Post by srean »

dang wrote: post #433
srean wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you look at my comment history think I have stuck to facts and been impersonal. Only transgression was when allegations were made by your parent poster that I called a million Hindu's a terrorist. That's a ridiculous and defamatory claim. I think I am allowed to ask for clarifications or contest it when words are put in my mouth

You haven't just stuck to facts and been impersonal—you perpetuated the flamewar along with others. For example, swipes like "Yeah keep spreading lies" ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25979836 ), "You are just trying to avoid answering" ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25979695 ), and so on, are completely unacceptable here. It's all too easy to assume that you're following the rules when you aren't—we a…

Thanks for the reasoned response. Certainly things for me to ponder about. I wouldn't belabor the points. Not sure how to call out lies and unfounded allegations such as "you called a million Hindus a terrorist".

Unfortunately a section of a society just thrives on propagating the identity of a hurt majority -- they back stabbed Hindus, they called Hinduism names etc etc. History shows us that this is very dangerous.

I am not to sure that keeping them uncontested is a good idea. Will have to find better and measured language to contest those.

Re: India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi

#435

Post by webmobdev »

dang wrote: post #431
webmobdev wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you are saying, but this was a submission on political protests and the government's somewhat repressive measures against it - so it is hard to discuss it without politics .... perhaps this submission should have been removed in and not allowed to gain traction in the first place? Can I flag such such submissions that have a political undertone?

It's not a question of discussing it without politics, but discussing it without flamewar. That may not be easy, because people quickly get angry and attack each other, but it's definitely doable, and that's the bar that political discussions on HN need to clear. The question of how to moderate politics on HN is a complex one because political stories are mixed: some are on-topic and some are off-topic. We can't excl…

Just sharing my perspective here - I noticed that US political posts are actually better moderated here than other non-US ones.

I highlight this because one of the difficulty I often face as a user on foreign social media networks is that the foreign mods are unfamiliar with our country's history (political or otherwise).

And so I find they often resort to the easier way of just removing the posts that have the most complaints, without realising that this is also one of the strategies used by the online troll army to suppress genuine criticism (all the "flagging" that you see for such posts are often online brigading by the troll army abusing the reporting tools).

In other words, the controversy is manufactured for something that isn't really controversial, and the mods are forced to step in because of the controversy and remove many of the posts, which is actully one of their goals. You unknowingly help them.

(Unfortunately, I cannot also offer a practical solution to this).

Re: India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi

#436

Post by known »

What else can we expect when Brahmin, 3% in India are 50% Ministers in Modi Cabinet, 80% Judges in Indian Courts and grabbed 50% jobs in Govt/Private;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism)

https://www.quora.com/Which-caste-is-looting-India/answers/2...

Re: India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi

#437

Post by amriksohata »

mandeepj wrote: post #224
yinyang_in wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not BJP fanatic, but as I see these laws. These are pro-farmer and anti-madis laws. There was monopolies of mandis(farmer are restricted only to sell here) now government allows them to make contract or sell anywhere. I wrote posts on it : https://iamamitmurari.medium.com/farm-laws-farmer-issues-and...

> There was monopolies of mandis(farmer are restricted only to sell here) now government allows them to make contract or sell anywhere. You have no clue. Farmers were free before also to sell anywhere. Reliance is going to monopolize in agriculture also similar to what they have done with Telecom via Jio.

This is a highly uneducated comment, Reliance is like Vodafone or O2, EE or 3G, they own mobile networks, can you imagine Vodafone going into farming LOL.

Re: India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi

#438

Post by mandeepj »

amriksohata wrote: post #437
mandeepj wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was monopolies of mandis(farmer are restricted only to sell here) now government allows them to make contract or sell anywhere. You have no clue. Farmers were free before also to sell anywhere. Reliance is going to monopolize in agriculture also similar to what they have done with Telecom via Jio.

This is a highly uneducated comment, Reliance is like Vodafone or O2, EE or 3G, they own mobile networks, can you imagine Vodafone going into farming LOL.

I believe you are uneducated. Not sure if you know or pretending to be ignorant - Reliance is a conglomerate. They are into a ton of businesses including Oil Refineries, Retail etc. What does Vodafone have to do with them?

Re: India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi

#439

Post by amriksohata »

mandeepj wrote: post #438
amriksohata wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a highly uneducated comment, Reliance is like Vodafone or O2, EE or 3G, they own mobile networks, can you imagine Vodafone going into farming LOL.

I believe you are uneducated. Not sure if you know or pretending to be ignorant - Reliance is a conglomerate. They are into a ton of businesses including Oil Refineries, Retail etc. What does Vodafone have to do with them?

You should read what the actual owners say

https://www.businessinsider.in/business/corporates/news/reli...

His industry has no interest in food and agriculture!

Re: India protests: Internet cut to hunger-striking farmers in Delhi

#440

Post by quantgenius »

davchana wrote: post #413
quantgenius wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These articles are precisely the kind of trolling a lot of Indian media does. There is a law that authorizes the government to set an MSP. That is precisely all an actual piece of legislation should do. Governments and administrative bureaucracies need flexibility to function. The details in any sane government are worked out by administrative rule making which is constrained by other laws. This authority is used by…

Three Bills, First one is giving the freedom to sell produce anywhere instead of designated grain markets. Sounds good? Until you realise that Grain Markets Officials were there kind of observers (at least in the spirit of law). Now Companies with teams of lawyers can deal directly with illiterate of private farmers. the las specifically gives only DM as highest arbiter in event of disagreement. Second one is giving…

If you think teams of lawyers are fleecing illiterate farmers, start a company and go buy produce from the farmers for 10% more. Nothing stops you from doing so. If you think the the private buyers won't honor MSPs, setup an NGO or file public interest litigation.

Do you realize how many inefficiencies are caused by pre-Independence and 1960s rules around how much food you can buy and store? Again, if you think they are cornering the market, buy or build a grain silo and compete.

India has the absolute lowest costs of mobile service in the world today. Jio remains the cheapest option in India and in my experience has by far the best service. Jio no longer offers free service but it's still cheaper than anyone else and is almost an order of magnitude cheaper than the prices offered by legacy mobile companies when they came on the scene. How exactly is Jio fleecing consumers?

Why shouldn't a better, cheaper service drive out the old players who can't compete at the same level? That's how market economies should work.

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